AVSIG: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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AVSIG Discussion Sections >> Air Traffic Control

Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure
      11/24/17 08:25 PM

There's "The way you do it when at an airport providing ATC service", and "The way you do it at airports that don't have ATC service", and "The way you handle pop-ups. LAS TRACON seems to have confused the three, or maybe they handle KHND departures as zero-AGL popups. :-)

7110.65X, 4-3-2 - Departure Clearances
...
c.
Departure Procedures.
1. Specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading to be flown after takeoff as follows:
(a)Locations with Airport Traffic Control Service [...like KHND...]

Specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading as necessary, consistent with published departure procedures (DP) or diverse vector areas (DVA), where applicable.
NOTE - If an initial heading is assigned in lieu of an assigned/filed Pilot Nav SID, and an ODP is published for that runway, pilots may commence turn after reaching a safe altitude or they may complete the ODP instructions for obstacle clearance, based on the regulations they are operating under before turning to the assigned heading.

...

At all other airports; [like, not KHND...]
Do not specify direction of takeoff/turn after takeoff. If necessary to specify an initial heading to be flown after takeoff, issue the initial heading so as to apply only within controlled airspace.

Compatibility with a procedure issued may be verified by asking the pilot if items obtained/solicited will allow him/her to comply with local traffic pattern, terrain, or obstruction avoidance.

PHRASEOLOGY:

FLY RUNWAY HEADING.
DEPART (direction or runway).
TURN LEFT/RIGHT.
WHEN ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE (instruction), FLY HEADING (degrees) UNTIL REACHING (altitude, point, or fix) BEFORE
PROCEEDING ON COURSE.

FLY A (degree) BEARING/AZIMUTH FROM/TO (fix)
UNTIL (time),
or
UNTIL REACHING (fix or altitude),
and if required,
BEFORE PROCEEDING ON COURSE.
EXAMPLE:
“Verify right turn after departure will allow compliance with local traffic pattern,”or “Verify this clearance will allow compliance
with terrain or obstruction avoidance.”

Or maybe they're confused about clearing aircraft off the ground and issuing popup IFR clearances as described in 4-2-8, IFR-VFR and VFR-IFR Flights:

1. Before issuing a clearance, ask if the pilot is able to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance during a climb to the minimum IFR altitude.

PHRASEOLOGY:
(Aircraft call sign), ARE YOU ABLE TO MAINTAIN YOUR OWN TERRAIN AND OBSTRUCTION CLEARANCE UNTIL REACHING (appropriate MVA/MIA/MEA/OROCA)

NOTE:
Pilots of pop-up aircraft are responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance until reaching minimum instrument altitude (MIA) or minimum en route altitude (MEA). Pilot compliance with an approved FAA procedure or an ATC instruction transfers that responsibility to the FAA; therefore, do not assign (or imply) specific course guidance that will (or could) be in effect below the MIA or MEA.

EXAMPLE:
“November Eight Seven Six, are you able to provide your own terrain and obstruction clearance between your present altitude and six thousand feet?”


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Entire topic
Subject Posted by Posted on
* Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Paul Millner [OAK] 11/08/17 04:42 AM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Scott Dunham (RDU)   11/08/17 10:07 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Paul Millner [OAK]   11/09/17 02:54 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]   11/09/17 03:36 AM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Kcid LlirreM   11/19/17 02:25 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Richard Palm (PAO)   11/24/17 06:43 AM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Bill Bridges - 9S1   11/19/17 05:54 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Scott Dunham (RDU)   11/10/17 04:57 AM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Paul Millner [OAK]   11/19/17 01:42 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Scott Dunham (RDU)   11/24/17 06:06 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure B. Butler (Oregonian)   11/24/17 06:13 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Scott Dunham (RDU)   11/24/17 08:25 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Paul Millner [OAK]   12/15/17 05:19 AM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Scott Dunham (RDU)   12/15/17 06:05 PM
. * * Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Ray Tackett   12/15/17 08:47 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Dave Siciliano (ADS)   12/16/17 02:32 AM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Scott Dunham (RDU)   12/16/17 11:44 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure sreyoB yrraL   12/17/17 10:58 AM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Scott Dunham (RDU)   12/17/17 06:11 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure B. Butler (Oregonian)   12/17/17 09:21 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Scott Dunham (RDU)   12/18/17 04:09 AM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Bill Bridges - 9S1   12/18/17 05:08 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Russell Holton   12/18/17 06:00 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Scott Dunham (RDU)   12/19/17 04:14 AM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Jeff Hartmann CIC   12/17/17 04:26 PM
. * * Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Ray Tackett   12/16/17 02:06 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Bill Bridges - 9S1   12/16/17 04:13 AM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Scott Dunham (RDU)   12/15/17 03:48 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Bruce Gorrell [EQY]   12/16/17 02:38 AM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Bill Bridges - 9S1   11/08/17 05:53 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Dave Siciliano (ADS)   11/08/17 04:07 PM
. * * Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure Tom Charlton   11/08/17 06:15 PM

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