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Jack E. Hammond
AVSIG Member


Reged: 08/23/04
Posts: 8393
Loc: INDIANA
Five "All Most Great Fighters" by Pierre Sprey
      #184315 - 02/10/08 01:40 PM

Folks,

Pierre Sprey who was one of the post era members of the so called "fighter mafia" which resulted in the F-16 and F-15 being developed and also one of the major forces behind the A-10A has come out against the F-22A Raptor. He has presented an interesting slide show. You can access it at the link below. But if you can first check pages 22 through 24. He claims that if the Swedish J-35 Draken had had the J-79 as its power plant that it would have been "the best" all around fighter of the 1960-1976 era.

Also if you are interested check the second link by James Stephenson former editor of the Navy Fighter Weapons School’s Topgun Journal.

Finally, on page 26 of the slide show it claims that in the India-Pakistan War of 1956 that Pakistan with 75 F-16 Mk.6s beat 6 to the India AF equipped with Mig-21s, SU-7s and Hunters. The problem is that at that time India had received only 10 Mig-21s and they were barely operational and at that time the India had zero SU-7s. And reports were the Russians had not delivered the Atoll IR missiles yet to India for their Mig-21s. Where as the Pakistani F-86s were "all" equipped with the U.S. Sidewinder IR missile. And Pakistan had 12 F-104As and the rare times they engaged the Mig-21s the Pak F-104s got the bad end of the stick according to Chuck Yeger (sp?), who was a defense attachee in Pakistan at the time of the 1965 War, in a letter to the Smithsonian aviation publication in reply to an article about the F-104.

Jack E. Hammond



Comparing a Quarter Century of Fighters - P. Spray



Stevenson F-22 Report



.

Edited by Jack E. Hammond (02/10/08 01:57 PM)


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: Five "All Most Great Fighters" by Pierre Sprey [Re: Jack E. Hammond]
      #184347 - 02/10/08 05:03 PM

Sprey talks about the big wing -104 which I thought was discussed and some reports even suggest one copy actually flew with the shoulder mounted wing. But no buyers and no takers. If it was, as Sprey suggests, so dominant why no orders.

It is interesting that he says the Draken with the J-79 would have been a hands-down winner when the engine used was a copy of the Avon 6 at about 17,000lbs of thrust and the J-79 produced almost the same. Explanation?

The Mirage III used the Atar engine at a much lower thrust level. And if one put the J-79 in both the III and the Draken, both come out as best ever??

The comparison between shoot-down with the -86/Mig-15 and later battles does not take into account that many of the -86 drivers had experience from WWII and the N. Koreans were not as well trained. And until Top Gun and other schools, there was not much training for air-to-air... Bob H will attest to that.

On the combat effectiveness of the Mirage versus F-4, remember the F-4 is about the size of Texas while the Mirage was about the size of RH. And the F-4 smoked badly...

I will defer and let Bob eat this thing up... he is much better and knows more.


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rheisner
AVSIG Member


Reged: 03/13/07
Posts: 2050
Loc: Southold, NY
Re: Five "All Most Great Fighters" by Pierre Sprey [Re: Jack E. Hammond]
      #184401 - 02/10/08 11:31 PM

Jack,
We've been down this road before. I put little stock in analytic comparisons of fighter airplanes and feel the outcome of air combat between airplanes is mostly dependant upon the pilots involved. Most such analysis involve one versus one combat which is most unrealistic. Only a raving idiot would enter a combat area without a wingman. Better yet four. It is unrealistic to assume there is only one enemy plane in the area. In real life there are always more and most of them will be found initially behind you. Simulator dogfights don't incorporate these real life unknowns and their results are always suspect.

All of the attributes listed in your article are useful for fighter airplanes. If you finally buy into the philosophy that speed is life in real combat and relagate various wifferdills and mid-air gymnastics to airshows then the age old requirements for a good fighter persist. Power, agility, power, visability, power, reliability, power, accurate weapons, power, good fuel fraction, power, and then more power.

Regardless of the airplane, pilot training/motivation, and tactics are important. Pilots who have never been in a dogfight will not be good at it. Airplanes designed as interceptors (F-104, F-4, etc) will not be the best dogfighters. ROE is important. Not too good if you have to give the enemy the first shot. Visual ID requirements put you in the same fix as a giant with a rifle fighting a midget with a knife in a phone booth.

Finally as to tactics. Loose duece, finger four, combat spread, none as useful as cheating. Never give the guy a fighting chance. Shoot him unseen from his six. Hideout in the clouds. Drag him in front of your wingee. Go straight into the sun and then put on your best move while he can't see. Shoot him while he's taking off or landing. Shoot him on the ground and/or bomb his ready room. Bomb his flight school. Bomb his kindergarden. There will be no award for second place and a kill is like a baseball hit. Doesn't matter if it's a bunt or booming home run it's still a hit. Kills are exactly the same. There will be no referees or umpires in the sky when you enter air combat for real.

Damn I'm ready to try the recruiter again and fake my age.

--------------------
If you obey all the rules you miss all the fun.
Katharine Hepburn


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Todd Allen
Public Guest


Reged: 07/01/07
Posts: 314
Loc: KTYS
Re: Five "All Most Great Fighters" by Pierre Sprey [Re: Jack E. Hammond]
      #184418 - 02/11/08 08:30 AM

I found myself laughing when I read these two articles...was I the only one?

These remind me of the stuff that Dr. Karlo Copp would put out to push the F-111 further for the RAAF.


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Jack E. Hammond
AVSIG Member


Reged: 08/23/04
Posts: 8393
Loc: INDIANA
Re: Five "All Most Great Fighters" by Pierre Sprey [Re: rheisner]
      #184445 - 02/11/08 02:15 PM

Dear Bob,

I am always suspicious of anything commissioned by the Center for Defense Information (ie it was started by a USN admiral with a weird sounding name). But when ever I read anything by the so called "defense reform" lobby I always find that a few of the important facts are either only half-true or not true. A good example was the 1965 Pakistan-Indian War. The author states that Pakistan only paid $100,000 for each F-86 Mk.6. This is true. But that cost only covered shipping and refurnishing. They were basically given to Pakistan. Both reports I found to be this way.

One item though that both authors seem to ignore: US fighters (especially USAF) have to operate over great distances. Almost all the fighters they mentioned (the F-5E for example) would be hard put to operate out of Thailand or South Vietnam and fly missions in the Red Delta area -- ie unless you had the KC-135s flying in range of the SA-2 Guideline.


Jack E. Hammond


PS> Visual ID requirements put you in the same fix as a giant with a rifle fighting a midget with a knife in a phone booth. ROFLMBFAO <GRIN>


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Frank Van Haste [VKX]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 2442
Loc: Northern VA
Re: Five "All Most Great Fighters" by Pierre Sprey [Re: Jack E. Hammond]
      #184447 - 02/11/08 02:27 PM

JEH:

Quote:

a USN admiral with a weird sounding name




That would be the rather controversial RAdm. Gene LaRocque.

FVH


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Jack E. Hammond
AVSIG Member


Reged: 08/23/04
Posts: 8393
Loc: INDIANA
Re: Five "All Most Great Fighters" by Pierre Sprey [Re: J. Wiley]
      #184448 - 02/11/08 02:32 PM Attachment (89 downloads)

Quote:

Sprey talks about the big wing -104 which I thought was discussed and some reports even suggest one copy actually flew with the shoulder mounted wing. But no buyers and no takers. If it was, as Sprey suggests, so dominant why no orders.




Dear John W,

That was the Lockheed CL-1200 Lancer offered in 1971 to other non-US F-104 nations. None were ever built or flew, because Lockheed required a firm commitment from one or two nations to ensure the recovery of the $70 million dollars development costs. Many thought that Italy, Turkey and Taiwan would be interested.

Jack E. Hammond


.


Edited by Jack E. Hammond (02/11/08 02:34 PM)


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 17091
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Five "All Most Great Fighters" by Pierre Sprey [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #184450 - 02/11/08 02:40 PM

Quote:

That would be the rather controversial RAdm. Gene LaRocque.




That's weird? In a Navy that had an Elmo Zumwalt <g>?

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Stephanie Belser
Top Gun APC


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 5556
Loc: KFAM
Re: Five "All Most Great Fighters" by Pierre Sprey [Re: rheisner]
      #184452 - 02/11/08 02:49 PM

IIRC, there is a story about the USAF testing a captured Mig-15. They had one of their best pilots in the MiG and an almost-as-good pilot in an F-86. They went up for a little one-on-one and the MiG waxed the kiester of the -86. Then the pilots switched aircraft and the -86 waxed the MiG.

Guess that works up to a point, though. When I was in high school, there was some nerdy guy who kept arguing that the Germans had better soldiers and their airplanes and tanks were better and so on. I finally asked him: "So, at the end of the war, whose army was sitting in whose capital?"

Shut him the frak up, it did. <g>


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Stephanie Belser
Top Gun APC


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 5556
Loc: KFAM
Re: Five "All Most Great Fighters" by Pierre Sprey [Re: Todd Allen]
      #184453 - 02/11/08 02:54 PM

I liked the really bad PhotoShop of the B-17 with its tail blasted off. IIRC, they stopped painting B-17s when it got to the point that the Germans didn't have much capability to oppose them.

Nothing like a couple of presentations that are about as unbiased as Pravda (or Fox News).


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