AVSIG: Tracon Radar Snafu? wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Tracon Radar Snafu?
      #445992 - 12/19/17 01:38 PM

Scotty Dunham, or an approach controller.... a question: Today I was doing a practice approach with a student (RNAV 20 @ HVN), on a vector to GUMP (IF). When just about overhead GUMP, the approach controller (ISP area of N90, LOVES sector) said that we were "not even close to GUMP", and instructed us to make a 180d turn to get there. When I responded that we were directly over the fix, in the turn to the final approach course, he reiterated that we weren't over GUMP...and then corrected himself and said that we were over GUMP. I mentioned that the radar must have been out of calibration momentarily. He responded, "yeah, I reached for it and you're over GUMP". (At least that's what it sounded like in replays on liveatc.net and at the time.) No harm, no foul, I thanked him for looking our for us...

But, what did he "reach" for, might he have had the radar on a more distant sensor (HPN, for example) that showed our position materially different? I doubt that it matters but this aircraft was GTX345 equipped with ADS-B Out.

(This, of course, after I'd made the point earlier in the lesson that ATC can call fixes on an approach as an aid to the pilot, or in an emergency when equipment fails....oy!)

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: Tracon Radar Snafu? [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #445993 - 12/19/17 01:45 PM

Here's the opinion of an official, rated (4 facilities)approach controller/supervisor/manager: "Beats the sh1t outta me."

Sometimes a screw up is just a screw up.

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: Tracon Radar Snafu? [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #445995 - 12/19/17 01:51 PM

Quote:

Here's the opinion of an official, rated (4 facilities)approach controller/supervisor/manager: "Beats the sh1t outta me."

Sometimes a screw up is just a screw up.




Never was a problem with shrimp boats and PATCO controllers. :)))

Bill


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Tracon Radar Snafu? [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #445997 - 12/19/17 01:55 PM

Quote:

Here's the opinion of an official, rated (4 facilities)approach controller/supervisor/manager: "Beats the sh1t outta me."

Sometimes a screw up is just a screw up.




I figured it was just a screw up...just curious as to whether through a setting on the equipment, or a brain f@rt on where the fix was.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Tracon Radar Snafu? [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #446000 - 12/19/17 02:33 PM

Quote:

or a brain [Email]f@rt[/Email] on where the fix was.




Maybe a brain f@rt on which blip he/she was talking to?


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: Tracon Radar Snafu? [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #446001 - 12/19/17 02:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Here's the opinion of an official, rated (4 facilities)approach controller/supervisor/manager: "Beats the sh1t outta me."

Sometimes a screw up is just a screw up.




Never was a problem with shrimp boats and PATCO controllers. :)))

Bill




Real men, i.e. approach controllers, don' need no steenken' lanchas de mariscos!

Memo en Puerto Vallarta

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Tracon Radar Snafu? [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #446002 - 12/19/17 04:11 PM

I had this happen joining a departure south of Charlotte. I departed Monroe, was on a heading to join the radial, had 2 VORs set and the GPS...as I was joining I get a call that I flew through the radial. I said I was on it according to 3 sources.. then he said oh, OK...I must have been in "coast".
Was the system predicting my position and not reporting it?
Pretty sure he said coast...

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: Tracon Radar Snafu? [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #446003 - 12/19/17 04:49 PM

Quote:

OK...I must have been in "coast".
Was the system predicting my position and not reporting it?
Pretty sure he said coast...




Yes. Thats what happens. The underlying radar gives real-time position, updated every 10 seconds (center radar) or 4 in terminal, but the computer that associates a data block with your transponder simultaneously predicts your next position based on track and speed history and if it doesn't see a radar target, it goes there anyway and announces "CST".

The computer is looking for your transponder in a fairly small circle of possibility and it is very easy to make a sharp turn, to join a course, for instance and sling the data block off on a tangent.

The system isnt hopelessly stupid though, and on each update it expands the circle of possibility, but there is an internal plausibility check it does, so you can CST for a while. It is precisely why every controller is supposedly taught to control the target, not THE FRAPPIN DATABLOCK!

Ahem...sorry.. I think the above fits your case.

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther

Edited by B. Butler (Oregonian) (12/19/17 04:51 PM)


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: Tracon Radar Snafu? [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #446004 - 12/19/17 05:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Here's the opinion of an official, rated (4 facilities)approach controller/supervisor/manager: "Beats the sh1t outta me."

Sometimes a screw up is just a screw up.




Never was a problem with shrimp boats and PATCO controllers. :)))

Bill




Real men, i.e. approach controllers, don' need no steenken' lanchas de mariscos!

Memo en Puerto Vallarta




ROFL!

Bill


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Tracon Radar Snafu? [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #446005 - 12/19/17 06:32 PM

Something wrong with controlling off a coast track? :-)

I know of one week-long SAR mission where USCG beat up a large chunk of the Caribbean looking for a coast track. Alas, the target had impacted Vieques at a high rate of descent and was not in the water at all...


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