AVSIG: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #445002 - 11/19/17 12:54 PM

Quote:

Anyway to pull up the atc audio?




You might try LiveATC, they archive a lot of stuff.

Bill


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Richard Palm (PAO)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 5388
Loc: PUDBY
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #445203 - 11/24/17 01:43 AM

Quote:

Anyway to pull up the atc audio?




Unfortunately, the LiveATC feed for LAS Approach scans a number of frequencies, but I did find some of the conversation about 23 or 24 minutes into this recording:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/klas/KLAS-App1-Nov-01-2017-1830Z.mp3

The controller refers to a need to maintain a minimum climb gradient, but if the pilot is going to be assigned a specific routing without being informed of it on the ground, I don't know how the heck they think the pilot can know in advance what climb gradient will be needed and determine whether he will be able to maintain terrain clearance.


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Paul Millner [OAK]]
      #445220 - 11/24/17 01:06 PM

I'm still checking on some stuff, but it appears that they're trying to have it both ways. They can't put the onus on an IFR pilot to maintain terrain/obstruction separation without giving said pilot the latitude to maneuver as necessary to do that, and the ODP is effectively useless since they'll probably only allow it at 4 AM.

Instead they seem to want to tell the pilot what to do via their radar vectors below the MVA, while blaming the pilot if that turns out to not work so well.

No. Bad radar doggie. Rolled up newspaper across nose for that.

They need to develop one of: a diverse vector area that allows them to be responsible for their own actions, or an ODP that they can live with, or a SID that they can assign to GA aircraft.

The semantic war described by Paul could have probably been fixed by a pilot request to "climb VFR through 8000" or whatever seemed right. In that case, you're accepting a VFR restriction that takes the controller off the hook for IFR terrain, obstruction, and aircraft separation below 8000 feet. It's not quite the same thing as noticing that you'll be IN VFR conditions through at least 8000: so is everybody else, but that doesn't absolve ATC of having to provide full IFR services anyway. By asking to climb VFR through 8000, you're effectively relinquishing your IFR clearance until 8000, which substantially reduces what the controller is obliged to do.


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #445221 - 11/24/17 01:13 PM

Scott,

Im too lazy too look it up, but my memory is that that whole "provide your own..." phraseology is only about an IFR pop-up and would be wildly inappropriate for a departure clearance. Has that changed?

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #445224 - 11/24/17 03:25 PM

There's "The way you do it when at an airport providing ATC service", and "The way you do it at airports that don't have ATC service", and "The way you handle pop-ups. LAS TRACON seems to have confused the three, or maybe they handle KHND departures as zero-AGL popups. :-)

7110.65X, 4-3-2 - Departure Clearances
...
c.
Departure Procedures.
1. Specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading to be flown after takeoff as follows:
(a)Locations with Airport Traffic Control Service [...like KHND...]

Specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading as necessary, consistent with published departure procedures (DP) or diverse vector areas (DVA), where applicable.
NOTE - If an initial heading is assigned in lieu of an assigned/filed Pilot Nav SID, and an ODP is published for that runway, pilots may commence turn after reaching a safe altitude or they may complete the ODP instructions for obstacle clearance, based on the regulations they are operating under before turning to the assigned heading.

...

At all other airports; [like, not KHND...]
Do not specify direction of takeoff/turn after takeoff. If necessary to specify an initial heading to be flown after takeoff, issue the initial heading so as to apply only within controlled airspace.

Compatibility with a procedure issued may be verified by asking the pilot if items obtained/solicited will allow him/her to comply with local traffic pattern, terrain, or obstruction avoidance.

PHRASEOLOGY:

FLY RUNWAY HEADING.
DEPART (direction or runway).
TURN LEFT/RIGHT.
WHEN ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE (instruction), FLY HEADING (degrees) UNTIL REACHING (altitude, point, or fix) BEFORE
PROCEEDING ON COURSE.

FLY A (degree) BEARING/AZIMUTH FROM/TO (fix)
UNTIL (time),
or
UNTIL REACHING (fix or altitude),
and if required,
BEFORE PROCEEDING ON COURSE.
EXAMPLE:
“Verify right turn after departure will allow compliance with local traffic pattern,”or “Verify this clearance will allow compliance
with terrain or obstruction avoidance.”

Or maybe they're confused about clearing aircraft off the ground and issuing popup IFR clearances as described in 4-2-8, IFR-VFR and VFR-IFR Flights:

1. Before issuing a clearance, ask if the pilot is able to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance during a climb to the minimum IFR altitude.

PHRASEOLOGY:
(Aircraft call sign), ARE YOU ABLE TO MAINTAIN YOUR OWN TERRAIN AND OBSTRUCTION CLEARANCE UNTIL REACHING (appropriate MVA/MIA/MEA/OROCA)

NOTE:
Pilots of pop-up aircraft are responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance until reaching minimum instrument altitude (MIA) or minimum en route altitude (MEA). Pilot compliance with an approved FAA procedure or an ATC instruction transfers that responsibility to the FAA; therefore, do not assign (or imply) specific course guidance that will (or could) be in effect below the MIA or MEA.

EXAMPLE:
“November Eight Seven Six, are you able to provide your own terrain and obstruction clearance between your present altitude and six thousand feet?”


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Paul Millner [OAK]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 675
Loc: Oakland CA
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #445844 - 12/15/17 12:19 AM

So Scott... if one were to encounter such weirdness again, whether at Henderson NV or elsewhere (I guess Las Vegas Henderson, if you want to find the darn place in the approach plate "book"), what would you as PIC have said?

I'm thinking, "F you... departing VFR..."

Paul


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Paul Millner [OAK]]
      #445853 - 12/15/17 10:48 AM

I was a little slow getting on this, but I talked to their TRACON procedures guy (I know him from a previous investigation - smart dude) and he’s looking at what they do with HND - no answer yet. Under the circumstances they didn’t give you a lot of good options except to “agree”, but as far as I can tell they’re not running a legal operation the way you described it. He confirmed that they don’t have a “diverse vectoring area” established that would allow them to assign headings off the ground, so without assigning an alternative obstacle SID or use of the standard ODP, they’re kind of stuck dumping it on pilots....except they can’t really do that, either.

What they specifically can’t do at a towered airport is have it both ways, where you’re responsible for their heading.

As a possibly acceptable out on a nice day, you could request a VFR climb through XXX altitude, which should alleviate all of their traffic and terrain concerns below XXX. They might even let you turn on course sooner, depending on what’s going on with traffic above XXX. Unfortunately, not all controllers are fully aware of how to use VFR restrictions so you might get some unexpected responses...

More to follow...


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Paul Millner [OAK]]
      #445856 - 12/15/17 01:05 PM

OK, so after a long chat with LAS TRACON...

The tower LOA with the TRACON requires them to ask if you'll accept terrain/obstruction clearance, which is why you got the question. Based on my reading of the 7110, that isn't actually legal, but...

They're kind of stuck. There's an RNAV SID off of 35, but it has a serious minimum climb gradient that you probably couldn't make anyway. They only use it for jets. I did ask them to look at the possibility of building a transition to that SID off 17, maybe 3 miles out to a DME fix or something and then a 180 back to rejoin the SID route. That would give departures to the south a few extra flying miles and allow them to use a flatter gradient. Dunno if that's going to get anywhere...

They say they've been around and around with the south departure issue and HQ told them they could do what they're doing. I still think they're wrong because they're essentially issuing an illegal vector below the MVA, but this has turned into "the way we always do it" because their alternative is "you're not going."

They did look at a replay and review the whole event, and commented that you were climbing slower than they would have expected (possibly so you could keep the nose down and watch the approaching rocks?) You were apparently about 6 miles from the rocks when the fun started. If you had said something about the terrain before turning, they would have probably turned you west to a 260 heading or so through the gap out that way.

So...if your future travel plans include Henderson, you could probably do what I said earlier: ask for a VFR climb through 6000 or so, or ask for a "visual climb over the airport" (about the same thing without actually going anywhere).


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #445858 - 12/15/17 03:47 PM

Concur. VFR to get around the tall rock just west of ELP to join V12
westbound works great and ATC is fine with it. They're actually happy and
relieved if you request it.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #445875 - 12/15/17 09:32 PM

If, it’s VFR. How does one depart IMC?

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