AVSIG: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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Paul Millner [OAK]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 675
Loc: Oakland CA
Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure
      #444621 - 11/07/17 11:42 PM

I was a bit taken aback departing Henderson NV (HND) this last week... it was severe VFR, but we were headed north to Beatty and thence over the Sierra, so I was hoping for some help with negotiating the Bravo... probably could have done better skimming the bottom of each segment, but alas.

Anyway, got our clearance from Ground, and then the taxi instructions. Halfway to the runway, Ground interrogated us roughly, "N177SD, verify that you can maintain your own terrain and obstacle clearance!" WTH? Hmmm. "Ground, I can meet the minimum climb specified in the ODP... and we'll be making our climb in VFR conditions. "That's not good enough. I need you to verify you can maintain terrain and obstacle clearance!" Hmmm, OK honey, I thought... "Affirmative!"

Of course, they're not about to let us fly the ODP, "climbing right turn to LAS Vortac..." Instead, we get runway heading then RV. Of course, they don't bother telling us what the MIA is, so we have no idea how close to Mexico they need to take us for the turn northbound.

How are we supposed to verify if they don't take us the routing we're given on paper?!

After departure, Tower handed us to Departure... they said maintain runway heading, and they'd turn us "shortly"... "Before we encounter the rocks?" "Well, that's the plan." After a while, it became apparent there were rocks in our future, so I sidestepped slightly to the right to avoid, and advised Departure we were maneuvering to avoid terrain.

That upset the boy... "If you can't maintain clearance from terrain, we'll have to take you back to the airport or something." Not sure what something is, but I often wonder about that option... all the way back to high school, when I was sometimes asked, "Are you gay or something?!" Tell me more about the something, optionality is good!

But I digress. "Well, no, Departure, we *are* maintaining terrain clearance. Just thought I'd let you know that strict compliance with your heading wasn't hacking it."

"I can't turn you until 6,000 feet." OK, that works... so climb away we did, and reaching 6,000' received the first in a series of circuitous vectors, until we requested and received direct Beatty (BTY).

So what is that goat roping exercise all about? Should I just tell them next time I'm planning the ODP, direct the VOR in the middle of the primary Bravo airport? Jeesh.

Paul


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Paul Millner [OAK]]
      #444626 - 11/08/17 11:07 AM

Well, that's a bit discouraging. Asking if you can maintain terrain clearance when you don't know the routing doesn't work. You said you planned to fly the ODP which is what should be expected. If they have alternative routing, that should be stated. I'd call their quality control folks and see where they take it.
Sorry this happened to you. Thankfully, you had the visibility to see you were clear.


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Paul Millner [OAK]]
      #444641 - 11/08/17 12:53 PM

Quote:

......So what is that goat roping exercise all about? .......




Maybe Mr. Dunham will be around shortly to add some clarity to this? :))

Bill


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Tom Charlton
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 2221
Loc: The west coast of Florida
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #444645 - 11/08/17 01:15 PM

Quote:

Thankfully, you had the visibility to see you were clear.


Hi Dave and Paul,

Jeez –a- ree! Contemplating if this had been in da clag!

What Dave said: Give’em a ring.

Regards,
Tom Charlton

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Paul Millner [OAK]]
      #444661 - 11/08/17 05:07 PM

Was this an IFR departure? What did you file and what was your initial clearance?

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Happy Birthday John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]
Top Gun


Reged: 09/13/01
Posts: 5059
Loc: Minnesota
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #444680 - 11/08/17 10:36 PM

Quote:

Was this an IFR departure? What did you file and what was your initial clearance?




I assume it was this flight.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N177SD/history/20171101/1700Z/KHND/KOAK


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Paul Millner [OAK]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 675
Loc: Oakland CA
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #444685 - 11/09/17 09:54 AM

Filed SHEAD BTY LIDAT RBRTS CAINS BBUBB

Cleared as filed

Paul


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]
      #444707 - 11/09/17 11:57 PM

Yeah, I saw that...just wanted to make sure I had my facts straight...but thanks!

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Paul Millner [OAK]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 675
Loc: Oakland CA
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #444987 - 11/19/17 08:42 AM

Let me know what you discover! And thanks!

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Kcid LlirreM
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 4768
Loc: Chuckey, TN
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]
      #444991 - 11/19/17 09:25 AM

Anyway to pull up the atc audio?

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