AVSIG: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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AVSIG Discussion Sections >> Training & Proficiency

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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #432878 - 11/20/16 02:52 AM

Andy -- That's a good example of how blinkered I am about low wings these days, after a 1000 hours of Archer time.

Larry, doing a curved base to final is much less bad, as you say. I've got a student or two who just likes to slink his way around, no more than 10d bank. He thinks I'm going to kill both of us with a nice 25-30d bank.


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #432879 - 11/20/16 02:53 AM

At last! A discussion of downind turns that makes sense!

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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #432880 - 11/20/16 03:06 AM

>>> He thinks I'm going to kill both of us with a nice 25-30d bank.

I cured one guy like that by taking him up in a Stearman for some mild
aerobatics. I also taught him to slip to the flare so he could see the
runway on final.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #432881 - 11/20/16 03:06 AM

>>> ... when they keep trying to raise the nose rather than holding the
correct pitch for airspeed.

That, IMO, is a lifesaving technique well worth teaching. It happens all too
often in the turn back to the airport after a post-takeoff engine failure.
By the time the pilot in that situation reacts, s/he is likely already slow,
so the increased stall speed in the steep turn finishes the fight prematurely.

After teaching level steep turns for PTS purposes, I would also have the
student do gliding steep turns for that very reason.

I saved my own butt and my wife's that way once. Why not help someone else
to be equally successful?

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #432888 - 11/20/16 06:27 PM

The final turn type of approach is the "normal" approach in the military.


One factor is, the downwind and thus the final turn radius should be the same for different aircraft. Slower aircraft have a shallower bank angle.

Once you get used to it, you can check your progress continually.

You do have to make an effort to look for traffic on a long final.

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #432892 - 11/20/16 07:28 PM

Terry -- While the military does it this way, that's a very different pool of student pilots than what we have on the civil side, with somewhat different goals (e.g., ease of instruction and execution matters on the civil side perhaps more than in military aviation).

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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #432894 - 11/20/16 08:34 PM

Quote:

make an effort to look for traffic on a long final.




!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

best, randy


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Ward Miller POU-NY
Top Gun


Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 10508
Loc: New York
Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #432896 - 11/20/16 10:42 PM

Scott, more on that referenced AOPA ASI news. The title says they will study
'stabilized approach", yet that is never mentioned in the article.

I've already mentioned the illustration is heavily biased toward the
"circular pattern".

It says the continuous turning "has the potential to reduce the likelihood of
overshooting a runway" but offers no explanation. It also says "we should
determine which is safer..." So they have already limited their investigation
to just the circular approach.

This is typical of, "We already have the conclusion. Now we will ignore all
contrary facts and try to prove it."

Do you thing the fact the author is a student pilot has anything to do with
the quality of the article?


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Kcid LlirreM
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 4768
Loc: Chuckey, TN
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #432898 - 11/20/16 11:19 PM

That final traffic view will be blocked by low wing airplanes.

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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #432899 - 11/20/16 11:21 PM

Ward -- I don't know why or how the article came to be written the way it was. Perhaps there was less detail on the "traditional pattern" side because we've all been taught that in our training? UND is a reasonably reputable operation and, while the FAA isn't above screwing up perfectly good training procedures (e.g., defining slow flight as above any stall horn), it'll be interesting to see the results of the study.

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