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sreyoB yrraL
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Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Flight Training Devices
      #406421 - 03/23/15 04:49 PM Attachment (154 downloads)

Randy sent me some information about the first flight training devices and simulators he encountered in his career. I'm currently in B737 initial in Houston at what is now one of the two United Airlines training centers. It was previously the Continental Airlines training center. At the center they have some pictures of some very old training devices but they are not labeled. I couldn't figure out what this one was and neither could Randy from just my description.



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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406422 - 03/23/15 04:53 PM Attachment (162 downloads)

Here's another picture from the training center. It looks like some kind of training device to teach the operation of the engine and related systems. Nothing like this around the center anymore. At this level there is an assumption that we already know how a turbine engine works and the training philosophy has long since changed from "teaching how to built it" to teaching what you need to operate it.



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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406423 - 03/23/15 04:58 PM Attachment (161 downloads)

Here's one of the current training devices. It is one of three B737 FTDs in the Houston center. This is the oldest of the three and the only one which does not include visuals. The FTDs are used as procedure training prior to full-flight simulator training. Everything works and they can be flown just like the airplane. The syllabus has us completing flights from aircraft power-up through power-down at the destination.



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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406424 - 03/23/15 05:00 PM Attachment (150 downloads)



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Bill Bridges - 9S1
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406425 - 03/23/15 05:07 PM

Larry,

Very nice, thanks for sharing. :-)

the other bill


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406426 - 03/23/15 05:13 PM Attachment (154 downloads)

Here's a YouTube video, which may have been posted before, from 1969. It's a promotional film describing United Airlines flight training showing what was then the brand new training center at Denver's Stapleton airport.

https://youtu.be/sCmvIsfXATA

Stapleton Airport is long gone but the United Airlines training center (Known internally as DENTK) is still there. Both my interview and first two weeks of training (Indoc) was at DENTK and much of it looks exactly like it did in the film, though you'll see far fewer suits in the hallways (unless they are conducting interviews that day).

Most of the center is original from 1968 though there is a new wing with more classrooms and sim bays. The new wing is connected to the original building by an elevated walkway. I took the following two pictures from that walkway. One shows the original Stapleton control tower, now surrounded by businesses and apartment buildings. The other is oriented in the other direction and shows some of the original buildings.



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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406427 - 03/23/15 05:14 PM Attachment (147 downloads)



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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #406428 - 03/23/15 05:17 PM

Quote:

Very nice, thanks for sharing. :-)

the other bill




Now how did I know that you'd be the first to reply, Bill? LOL!


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406429 - 03/23/15 05:36 PM

United, after the recent merge with Continental, has two training centers--DENTK and the former CAL center in IAH (IAHPS). They intend to consolidate into a single training facility but neither of the existing center is large enough so both of the existing facilities will be replaced by a new combined facility. UAL is set to announce the decision on the location of this new center in the coming weeks. The choice is between Denver, Houston, and Chicago (home of UAL's corporate headquarters).

It's difficult to imagine the logistics of moving all of these simulators to a new facility while training must continue. UAL is already renting simulators outside of their facilities in Las Vegas, Atlanta, and Miami. The 737 is the largest fleet and has six simulators in IAHPS and they contracting out to use additional 737 sims at Pan AM and Boeing in MIA and Boeing in Atlanta.


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406430 - 03/23/15 05:41 PM

Quote:

Now how did I know




yrraL, hard to tell cuz the photo's sorta blurry but you'd mentioned no one seems to know, 4 engined and I'm pretty sure the old 3 pointer altimeter, I've sent it to a couple old chums, my guess is a 70 or a 720 but I sure dunno, I'll put on here what they say.

Looking at those photos of the old UAL training center, I can almost picture Carl Wood in 1962 telling us about his type rating in the Caravelle during that FAA experiment with sim. training.

Am going to include a paragraph excerpt here of that article I was writing:
-------------
In 1962 I was taken off line pilot status into North Central Airline’s flight training office. A short time later - in the fall of that year - we attended the first annual airline flight training symposium. United Airlines sponsored it at its Denver training facility and it was attended by the flight training managers from all the US airlines. During that event, I recall listening to UAL’s chief flight instructor describing his recent flight training in the Caravelle simulator. He’d received his type rating on it as a result of an FAA experiment with all training being accomplished in the simulator. This experiment predated the FAA’s ultimate approval of this process by about twenty-five years. The next year, Trans World Airlines sponsored this meeting at their Kansas City facilities. That year I saw a TWA 707 simulator with an attachment (mounted sideways on a wall adjacent to the simulator) consisting of a model railroad-like miniature scenario of scale houses/barns, trees, streets, etc. By means of a small camera this scene was made visible to the pilot while flying an ILS approach. This archaic endeavor probably represented one of the earliest attempts to provide a visual depiction to pilots undergoing simulator flight training. Prior to this the flight training had been conducted solely in the actual airplane.
----------

best, randy

Edited by Randy Sohn (03/23/15 05:55 PM)


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406431 - 03/23/15 05:44 PM

Quote:

It's difficult to imagine the logistics of moving all of these simulators to a new facility




As the locals up here are wont to utter - "Uff-dah". Shades of the move of NATCO to Hotlanta after the NWA/Delta merger.

best, randy


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406432 - 03/23/15 06:15 PM

Quote:

United, after the recent merge with Continental




yrraL, I'd said I'd let you know what they said, Verne Jobst just called me to say the guy in the left seat LOOKS like it COULD be Ed Carlson - but he doesn't know. At any rate, neither guy had his shoulder harness hooked up so it could be demo of the sim to the CEO of Untidy. Verne (ex-Capitol) was #1 at Untidy when he retired, figured he'd know some of those people or planes but nope.The guy with the 4 stripes at the instructor's station isn't known either. The guy in the jumpsuit looks to be a fed.

best, randy


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #406434 - 03/23/15 06:22 PM

Quote:

yrraL, I'd said I'd let you know what they said, Verne Jobst just called me to say the guy in the left seat LOOKS like it COULD be Ed Carlson - but he doesn't know. At any rate, neither guy had his shoulder harness hooked up so it could be demo of the sim to the CEO of Untidy. Verne (ex-Capitol) was #1 at Untidy when he retired, figured he'd know some of those people or planes but nope.The guy with the 4 stripes at the instructor's station isn't known either. The guy in the jumpsuit looks to be a fed.




Since those pictures are posted at the Houston facility I'd bet that they came from the Continental side, not United. Also, my impression is that the "simulator" picture may be of a fixed-based FTD and not a full sim but I don't really have anything solid to back that up. Could be why there's no belts in view?

I'll try to get better pictures later this week. I took them on my way out the door to catch the airport shuttle and didn't check them until I got home.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406437 - 03/23/15 07:10 PM


Did Randy use the string tapped to the front windscreen. ;)

We used the Link trainers in Army flight school. My class was the second to get a standard instrument ticket. Didn't keep any pics but the technology was sure behind what you're using (and what I use at SIMCOM each year) :)
Hard to believe that was in '71


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #406438 - 03/23/15 07:14 PM

Quote:

He’d received his type rating on it as a result of an FAA experiment with all training being accomplished in the simulator. This experiment predated the FAA’s ultimate approval of this process by about twenty-five years.




When I was the tower/approach chief at Pueblo, United had approval to conduct a lot of their training in sims but still had some requirement for time in the actual airplane (The joke was "they need to learn to operate the door, after all.")

To get them out of the Stapleton pattern, they did this stuff at Pueblo, where it was common to have three or four in the airspace at a time--a lively operation, especially if you also had 3 or 4 army helicopters, a t-33-or-39 and a Canadian Convair from COS.

I visited the UAL tng center at Denver a couple times and at that time (79-81) they were still using the wall-mounted "model train city" for all the visuals. Certain instructors could be counted on to put extra crew meals on the Pueblo-bound training flights.

In many ways PUB was the best assignment I had in a rich 30-year career.

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther

Edited by B. Butler (Oregonian) (03/23/15 07:14 PM)


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #406439 - 03/23/15 07:18 PM

Quote:

the string tapped to the front windscreen




Chuckle, great story - but did you ever see that video of of Rapid Robert doing the roll with that glass of water on the glare shield?

best, randy


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #406440 - 03/23/15 07:30 PM

Quote:

approval to conduct a lot of their training in sims but still had some requirement for time in the actual airplane




Yes, fully cognizant of that - how'sum'eveh I was talking/writing of Carl's TOTALLY in the sim, IIRC it pre-dated that ruling that you refer to by about 25 years or so. I got my 727 type rating in the sim but had to fly the actual airplane one time to finish that rating. Then later, my DC-10 and 747 type ratings were totally in the sims, I never landed the real 10 until later at Honolulu with a check pilot.

One more thing for yrraL here, the shoulder straps are there, just not hooked up. Many people don't seem to know that you can break bones or worse in a sim if it falls, that's why I suspect it was a demo only.

best, randy


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Mase Taylor
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #406441 - 03/23/15 07:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

the string tapped to the front windscreen




Chuckle, great story - but did you ever see that video of of Rapid Robert doing the roll with that glass of water on the glare shield?

best, randy




Hoover Pouring Tea

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #406506 - 03/24/15 10:06 PM

Quote:

My class was the second to get a standard instrument ticket




Dave,

They were giving out standard tickets in the classes before your class in 1971, but on a limited basis. I was the only one in my class to get one. I flew as good as I could fly. After the first turn in holding I was 59 seconds inbound. Did the ILS to mins with a missed to an NDB. Did the NDB with no A/S, A/I and VSI.

I liked flying the Link. I thought it was very good for working on procedures. It was not nearly as stable as the aircraft I was flying so it made flying the aircraft a lot easier. :-)

the other bill


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Ralph Jones
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #406507 - 03/24/15 10:32 PM

I did part of my civilian rating at OPF circa 1968, and they had some of the original Links with the vacuum-cleaner power and the cute little wings. Pretty basic simulation: the turn rate was simply proportional to the rudder position <g>.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #406511 - 03/24/15 11:06 PM

Quote:

was 59 seconds inbound




Wow, and here I'd thought that no one else understood that!

best, randy


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #406513 - 03/24/15 11:20 PM

Yes, Bill, that was my understanding. In my class, all graduates received a standard ticket. You were an exception as always :)

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #406515 - 03/24/15 11:30 PM

Quote:

I did part of my civilian rating at OPF circa 1968, and they had some of the original Links with the vacuum-cleaner power and the cute little wings. Pretty basic simulation: the turn rate was simply proportional to the rudder position <g>.




Well....if you could have shared that with some of us in '71, it woulda saved us a lot of grief (hands on hip tapping foot!)
Still remember ADF approaches and hold in that damned thing.


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #406518 - 03/24/15 11:43 PM

Quote:

remember ADF approaches




I though the ADFs were easy, the aural-null ones were harder (and the LFRs).

best, randy


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #406522 - 03/25/15 01:01 AM

Quote:

You were an exception as always




I wasn't an exception, I was in the Army. :-)

On the serious side, I put in a lot of effort into the instrument portion of the training. I found out I could go over to Hanchey and get all the extra sim time I wanted as long as no one else was scheduled. The guys running the sims didn't care, it just gave them something to do. They could screw me around with different scenarios which they couldn't do under normal training classes. I worked out a lot of short cuts in the sim that I used later.

the other bill


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #406524 - 03/25/15 01:09 AM

Quote:

Quote:

remember ADF approaches




I though the ADFs were easy, the aural-null ones were harder (and the LFRs).

best, randy




I liked ADF approaches. That push'n the head and pull'n the tail thingy just made sense. I always said if I was down to my last drop of gas and the field was below minimum I'd take a dual ADF approach with the second beacon at the field. KFSI had one of those back in the day that took the aircraft between the artillery ranges.

the other bill

Edited by Bill Bridges - T47 (03/25/15 01:54 AM)


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #406525 - 03/25/15 01:21 AM

Quote:

liked ADF approaches




Guess what liked best about teaching them was to have the student tune in the station Waylon Jennings was on and I could listen while the student worked <g>.

best, randy


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #406529 - 03/25/15 01:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:

liked ADF approaches




Guess what liked best about teaching them was to have the student tune in the station Waylon Jennings was on and I could listen while the student worked <g>.

best, randy




Deep nights coming into Dallas I've asked center for direct WBAP (Bill Mac) more than once. :-))

the other bill


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #406534 - 03/25/15 02:38 AM

Ralph,
Were you in the ANT-18 s at BATC.....that's where I was in 67-68.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Ralph Jones
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #406535 - 03/25/15 02:44 AM

Yep, Burnside-Ott. I was stationed at WPAFB, and had a CFII at the local Piper dealer who got me through most of it...but we had scheduling problems and progress was slow. I decided to do a concentrated wrapup at BATC while home in Miami for Christmas, and they whipped me right through.

Mr. Burnside gave me the flight check in less than 30 minutes...;-)

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #406537 - 03/25/15 02:46 AM

It was busy place back then.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #406538 - 03/25/15 02:56 AM

Quote:

I liked ADF approaches.




I definitely did not (do not?) like off-field NDB approaches!

When I was in instrument training I considered them part of the "CFII full employment act of 1991."

And on topic -- I spent about a week in the Denver United training center in the late 1990's trying to figure out a problem with the network in one of the trainers we (CDC) built to run LOFTs. The crew would get about halfway between LAX and SFO in the LOFT and the system would hang. We eventually got it working but I don't remember what it was. I felt at the time that if I had been on a flight in a 757 from LAX to SFO, and the flight crew fell ill, I could probably safely complete the journey, seeing as I'd sat through it about 50 times. :)



Edited by John O'Shaughnessy [FCM] (03/25/15 03:05 AM)


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Ralph Jones
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #406539 - 03/25/15 03:00 AM

Certainly was. I'll always remember the kid who gave me serious workouts on unusual attitudes...one day I cheated and peeked enough to find his entry maneuver was a Cuban-8...in a 172 <g>.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #406543 - 03/25/15 12:38 PM

Quote:

who gave me serious workouts on unusual attitudes




I'd always let them do it themselves, told them to close their eyes and then I had them do some turns, level flight and stuff. Then I had them open their eyes and recover. Worked great!

best, randy

Edited by Randy Sohn (03/25/15 12:39 PM)


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Ralph Jones
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #406553 - 03/25/15 01:53 PM

One of the toughest I had was straight and level, high speed, trim way back <g>.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406628 - 03/26/15 07:32 AM Attachment (117 downloads)

I retook the pictures. These came out a lot better...



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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406629 - 03/26/15 07:33 AM Attachment (118 downloads)



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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406840 - 03/29/15 05:25 AM Attachment (217 downloads)

Here's a picture of one of the six 737 sims at the Houston training center (for Bill). This one has the newer electric motion platform instead of the usual hydraulic.



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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406851 - 03/29/15 12:51 PM

It's wonderful they're in a building with those big windows. Must make it more pleasant to spend a few hours in the box with the natural light.

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Kcid LlirreM
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406854 - 03/29/15 01:49 PM

Back when ATOPs was still in business I flew a 737-900 sim at CAL's training center at IAH. Was fun to watch from outside, my fellow students land the thing. The jacks would drop as they flared and then rise rapidly to simulate a hard landing. Went off the runway at SFO with an engine failure below V1

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Randy Sohn
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406855 - 03/29/15 01:57 PM

Quote:

Here's a picture of one of the six 737 sims at the Houston




I see from the logo that Canadian Aviation Electronics built it, they still in Montreal?

best, randy


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #406859 - 03/29/15 02:13 PM

Quote:

It's wonderful they're in a building with those big windows. Must make it more pleasant to spend a few hours in the box with the natural light.



That's JFK Blvd out the windows. Just down the street, and on the opposite side from, Houston Center.

No windows on the other side of the building. Not that it really matters once you get inside the box.


Quote:

Back when ATOPs was still in business I flew a 737-900 sim at CAL's training center at IAH.



The -900 sim doesn't go online for another week or two. All of the operating 737 sims are currently -800s. The -900 sim is a Level X sim, which I hadn't heard of before. Adds some new capabilities for training for inflight upsets.


Quote:

Went off the runway at SFO with an engine failure below V1



That's what the rudder is for. LOL


Quote:

I see from the logo that Canadian Aviation Electronics built it, they still in Montreal?



I think so.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406868 - 03/29/15 05:26 PM

Quote:

That's what the rudder is for




Yup, NOW!!

Seen w-a-y too many try to use the nose wheel steering - disaster! Come to think of it, at least they didn't attempt to use the ailerons (spoiler alert no <g>)

best, randy (thank God nowadays for sims)


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #406873 - 03/29/15 06:45 PM

Larry - <<Not that it really matters once you get inside the box.>> Ah, yeah, that was the (or attempt at a) joke.

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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #406923 - 03/30/15 01:44 AM

I thought it was funny....!

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Flight Training Devices [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #406934 - 03/30/15 10:47 AM

Quote:

I thought it was funny....!




Jeff -- Doesn't say much good about us, does it?


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