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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate
      #397836 - 10/15/14 08:15 PM

At least, according to this FORBES ARTICLE.

"In addition, drone pilots who hold airmen certificates are at particular risk, especially if they fly manned aircraft for a living. According to the new guidance: “For a deliberate, egregious violation by a certificate holder, regardless of whether the certificate holder is exercising the privileges of the certificate in connection with the violations associated with a UAS operation, certificate action, may be appropriate. Such certificate action may be in addition to a civil penalty.” This means that a model aircraft operator may put his professional license at risk – even though no license is required to fly a model aircraft – if the FAA decides that his or her conduct is egregious enough."

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #397839 - 10/15/14 08:56 PM

A violation of what regulation?

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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #397840 - 10/15/14 09:16 PM

>> what regulation?

Excellent question. FAA keeps claiming that they have grounds to violate drone operators, but they've already been shot down in flames by one ALJ, and still haven't put out any official rulemaking attempts despite knowing that drones were coming for at least 10 years.

So heck, if you can't get around to putting out any applicable regulations, just bluster a lot and pretend you have.


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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #397843 - 10/15/14 10:06 PM

Hi Scott

Well, it's refreshing to have some insight from the senior ATC (unofficial -and just personal observations) section of the NTSB about this FAA problem with drone operations.

In defense of the FAA, ATC safety folks, they are working hard to find out a set of rules and regulations that could control this new (well not so new) stuff.

My observation is that the NTSB and other government people are working hard on this problem, which includes the DOD and many State concerns.

You should write a article -but of course, you cannot with the NTSB Board looking at the publications.

Regards,

Dux


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Ward Miller POU-NY
Top Gun


Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 10508
Loc: New York
Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #397849 - 10/16/14 06:07 AM

Scott, earlier this week the local power company (gas & electric) said, in
local newspaper, they were testing a small drone to use for inspecting poles
and wires.

The next day an FAA spokesman said they could not do that. Needed FAA
approval for using drones commercially. Said they had 60 applications for
such usage and had approved only 4 of them -- movie companies in remote
locations.


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #397853 - 10/16/14 09:34 AM

Quote:

had approved only 4 of them -- movie companies in remote locations.




-You can't fly that.
-But we're from Hollywood. Would you like to meet Jennifer Lawrence?
-OK.

<g>

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #397859 - 10/16/14 02:25 PM

OTOH, what should happen to someone who has a certificate and flies a drone in a way that endangers aircraft? Such as in a active airway without any coordination?

I don't see the statement as something inherently wrong - more of a question of what situations will they do that in.


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Reams Goodloe
Top Gun


Reged: 05/07/04
Posts: 2582
Loc: Kent, Washington
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #397860 - 10/16/14 02:58 PM

>>The next day an FAA spokesman said they could not do that. Needed FAA approval for using drones commercially. Said they had 60 applications for such usage and had approved only 4 of them -- movie companies in remote locations. <<<

OK, please tell me the specific section of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR's) which requires submittal to the FAA, and approval by the FAA, for such operations.....

- Reams -


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Ward Miller POU-NY
Top Gun


Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 10508
Loc: New York
Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #397865 - 10/16/14 05:51 PM

>> ...please tell me the specific section.... <<

Well, it's....ah, you see....according to....ahem....do you have any other
questions?


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #397874 - 10/16/14 09:25 PM

Quote:

Scott, earlier this week the local power company (gas & electric) said, in local newspaper, they were testing a small drone to use for inspecting poles
and wires. The next day an FAA spokesman Said they had 60 applications for usage and had approved only 4 of them -- movie companies in remote locations.




The power company needs to hire the movie company to take movies of their power lines and poles <G>.

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #397930 - 10/18/14 11:41 AM

THREAD DRIFT: Lots of discussion yesterday at the VAW-VRC Symposium about conflict between ATC and the E2D surveillance capabilities. Do you know anything about that? Is it an ADS-B (or NextGen) problem?

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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #397948 - 10/18/14 06:08 PM

Totally clueless, sorry...

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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #397949 - 10/18/14 06:13 PM

They definitely need to do something credible, but the rulemaking process over there is simply dysfunctional. They've done things like this before. When Atlanta opened their fifth runway, the class B airspace needed to change to accommodate the arrival path. Apparently, the new runway was a total surprise to FAA, because they had to do a 30-day no-comments-allowed "emergency" airspace action to change the class B boundary after the runway opened.

Pure administrative malfunction. This strikes me about the same way.


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #397958 - 10/18/14 07:34 PM

Thanks, Scott. I need to get more details on what the conflict is about.

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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #398116 - 10/21/14 08:45 PM

Droning On...


More on drones and regulation.

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]
Top Gun


Reged: 09/13/01
Posts: 5059
Loc: Minnesota
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #398118 - 10/21/14 09:57 PM

Quote:

Droning On...


More on drones and regulation.




It seems to me, as someone who dabbles in remote control aircraft, that that article mashes together many different topics. It starts talking about someone shooting down a "drone" which they don't identify, and the spend most of the rest of the article talking about concerns about surveillance.

I'd guess in most cases, rules protecting against surveillance already exist, wether from a "drone," a light aircraft at 1000 feet, or your neighbor up on a ladder peering over your back fence. Putting a small camera on a craft adds a new technical twist, but I can't believe it makes it a free-for-all.


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]
      #398123 - 10/21/14 11:02 PM

Quote:

It seems to me, as someone who dabbles in remote control aircraft, that that article mashes together many different topics. It starts talking about someone shooting down a "drone" which they don't identify, and the spend most of the rest of the article talking about concerns about surveillance.



I think it's less about surveillance (although that seems to be the driving concern) and more about who "owns" that space. It indicates that there is a body of law that the property owner has up to 500'. (How that will wash out in court is a different story.)



Quote:

I'd guess in most cases, rules protecting against surveillance already exist, wether from a "drone," a light aircraft at 1000 feet, or your neighbor up on a ladder peering over your back fence. Putting a small camera on a craft adds a new technical twist, but I can't believe it makes it a free-for-all.



Yes, and no. I think the cost of operating an aircraft and the FAA height restrictions has prevent that from being an issue. I am curious about what prevents someone from perching atop a 10' ladder and looking in neighbor's yards. Probably just being personally exposed has limited that behavior.

I think drones/RCs change the picture and what hasn't traditionally been a problem now becomes a concern.

As for surveillance by government officials, I think one of the big tests is if the person has a right to be at their point of observation and if it can be seen with the unaided eye. So if a officer driving down the street looks into a picture window and sees in illegal activity in the living room - too bad for the crook. If the officer uses binoculars from far away for concealment, then it's a different story.

So the first question - does a police drone have a right to be 100' over someone's property without a warrant? That makes a difference in being admissible in court. I don't know as that question has come up before. I know of "Operation Green Harvest" which used helicopters to look for marijuana has been around awhile. But I'd think FAA regs limit how low they can fly and operational costs prevent longer term surveillance.



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Reams Goodloe
Top Gun


Reged: 05/07/04
Posts: 2582
Loc: Kent, Washington
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]
      #398166 - 10/22/14 11:43 PM

>>but I can't believe it makes it a free-for-all.<<

Maybe not.
But if he was flying a drone over my property within range of my 12 gauge with 3 inch duck shot steel magnums, he is liable to be taken down, no mercy.

What is that, maybe 120 feet kill altitude, max ?

Case closed, acquitted.

- Reams -


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Reams Goodloe
Top Gun


Reged: 05/07/04
Posts: 2582
Loc: Kent, Washington
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #398167 - 10/22/14 11:46 PM

And, if you are gonna write a reg, maybe it should be established using 10 gauge, three and a half inch magnums, eh ?

- Reams -


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John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]
Top Gun


Reged: 09/13/01
Posts: 5059
Loc: Minnesota
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #398283 - 10/24/14 10:09 PM

But is this any different than someone with a kite that is overflying your property? Would you have the same response to that event? How about an Estes rocket that came down under parachute into your property?

What I don't understand is the vitriol that seems stronger for one thing than another...

Quote:

>>but I can't believe it makes it a free-for-all.<<

Maybe not.
But if he was flying a drone over my property within range of my 12 gauge with 3 inch duck shot steel magnums, he is liable to be taken down, no mercy.

What is that, maybe 120 feet kill altitude, max ?

Case closed, acquitted.

- Reams -




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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]
      #398294 - 10/25/14 09:09 AM

Quote:

What I don't understand is the vitriol that seems stronger for one thing than another...



It comes from the perception that drones are spying.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Gil Buettner [KAUW]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 2847
Loc: Gateway to the Northwoods
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]
      #398318 - 10/25/14 06:24 PM

FWIW, one of our CFIs had a near miss (he says about 50 feet) with a UAV last week about eight miles west of our airport at Wausau.

This was at 4,500 feet!

This is getting serious, folks.

--------------------
-Gil


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Gil Buettner [KAUW]]
      #398320 - 10/25/14 06:54 PM

Quote:

FWIW, one of our CFIs had a near miss (he says about 50 feet) with a UAV last week about eight miles west of our airport at Wausau.

This was at 4,500 feet!




It take it that this was a "big one" (not likely hobbyist/individual type).


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Russell Holton]
      #398324 - 10/25/14 07:21 PM

Quote:

It take it that this was a "big one" (not likely hobbyist/individual type).



Hobbyist drones aren't supposed to do that, but some of them are capable.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Anne Umphrey (KBED)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 12756
Loc: KBED
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Gil Buettner [KAUW]]
      #398370 - 10/26/14 02:59 PM

Just waiting for the "big one". I'm sure it will happen someday.
Anne

--------------------
You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky.
- Amelia Earhart, 1897 - 1937


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Reams Goodloe
Top Gun


Reged: 05/07/04
Posts: 2582
Loc: Kent, Washington
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]
      #398385 - 10/26/14 10:26 PM

Frank -


>>But is this any different than someone with a kite that is overflying your property? Would you have the same response to that event?<<

Depends - is it carrying a camera ?

>>> How about an Estes rocket that came down under parachute into your property?<<

Same answer.

Basically, the concept is one that every new law student hears in the first year criminal law class - did the complaining person have a "legitimate expectation of privacy".....??? otherwise known as LEOP....

As a matter of privacy, I don't expect a drone to be hovering in my back yard with a camera looking into the house. A drone operator recently did that next to a condo in Seattle. That invaded the owner's legitimate expectation of privacy.

If society decides that you should have no expectation of privacy, and you should keep the shades drawn at all times, and forget about the noise at all times, then cases will be decided against property owners and users. Until such time, when drone equipment gets too close, enforcement measures should be available to property owners.... ..without having to post sky readable "no trespass" signs.

- Reams-

Edited by Reams Goodloe (10/26/14 10:26 PM)


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Gil Buettner [KAUW]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 2847
Loc: Gateway to the Northwoods
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Russell Holton]
      #398436 - 10/27/14 09:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

FWIW, one of our CFIs had a near miss (he says about 50 feet) with a UAV last week about eight miles west of our airport at Wausau.

This was at 4,500 feet!




It take it that this was a "big one" (not likely hobbyist/individual type).




No, not a big one. A quadracopter, that anyone can buy and operate.

--------------------
-Gil


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Gil Buettner [KAUW]]
      #398442 - 10/27/14 10:11 PM

And, according to Ars Technica, a British airline pilot reported a drone
which seemed to be trying to hit his plane.

http://tinyurl.com/n7d2gxt

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Reams Goodloe
Top Gun


Reged: 05/07/04
Posts: 2582
Loc: Kent, Washington
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #398874 - 11/02/14 05:33 PM

OK, Scott, forget about rulemaking.
Here is an operational fix....

http://app.icrosschina.com/?app=article&controller=article&action=show&contentid=5063

The original link had some photos, but I can't seem to get the link to include those...

- Reams-


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #398879 - 11/02/14 10:15 PM

Quote:

Here is an operational fix....



Just watch out what's behind it.


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Kcid LlirreM
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 4768
Loc: Chuckey, TN
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #398887 - 11/03/14 08:20 AM

Since most if not all hobby drones come from China, will the lasar drone removal tool be far behind?

:South Park did a great show on drones recently.


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Tom Charlton
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 2221
Loc: The west coast of Florida
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #398984 - 11/04/14 07:19 PM

Quote:

hobby drones


Hi Dick,
Just think’n here… ya know… one of them drone thingies might be just the ticket for exploring and documenting abandoned AN Radio Range sites! <gd&r>

Would beat tramp’n through the trees-n-weeds <g>

Regards,
Tom Charlton

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Rick Cremer
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/30/04
Posts: 176
Loc: KSRQ
Re: Illegal Drone Ops May Risk Your Certificate [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #399636 - 11/18/14 06:31 PM

Quote:

A violation of what regulation?




Title 49 United States Code § 40102(a)(6) and Title 14 CFR 91.13(a).

At least that's what I would have cited in my EIR.


Best

Rick Cremer
FAA Aviation Safety Inspector (Operations and Airworthiness) (Ret.)


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