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Jerry Kurata [KLVK]
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Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas
      #332283 - 01/02/12 12:16 PM

I have often thought it would be neat to be an airline pilot and get paid to fly. But then reality strikes when I read a story like this.

http://news.yahoo.com/family-kicked-off-plane-too-many-kids-tried-235706662.html


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Mase Taylor
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Jerry Kurata [KLVK]]
      #332293 - 01/02/12 02:25 PM

This whole fiasco could have been avoided if the family had just leveled with a reservations agent in advance, up front, when making their reservations. Or read the web site. In depth.

--------------------
There was no nothing before the Big Bang, because there was no before.-Adolf Grunbaum.


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Russell Holton
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #332304 - 01/02/12 02:59 PM

Quote:

This whole fiasco could have been avoided if the family had just leveled with a reservations agent in advance, up front, when making their reservations. Or read the web site. In depth.




"The option for infants or kids under 2 is not included unless you look at a different part of the website and click again for a further explanation."

I wouldn't expect anyone to go over the entire website. This sounds like bad website design. Flying with children under 2 isn't so unusual that there shouldn't be some kind of mention/link on it when you go to buy tickets.

I am suspecting the Fickes might be right. What options do parents with that number of children have?


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nehoC hctiM
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Reged: 08/03/04
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Jerry Kurata [KLVK]]
      #332309 - 01/02/12 03:48 PM

What if Nadia Sulamon shows up?

--------------------
USA Today said, people over 50 are calmer.


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Russell Holton]
      #332311 - 01/02/12 04:09 PM

Quote:


I am suspecting the Fickes might be right. What options do parents with that number of children have?




The same option we all have, buy each kid a ticket and install an approved carseat, just like I did with each of my kids. "Laps" are bad policy and poor parenting.

--------------------
The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition.
-Carl Sagan

Edited by B. Butler (Oregonian) (01/02/12 04:09 PM)


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #332313 - 01/02/12 04:18 PM

Quote:

... "Laps" are bad policy and poor parenting.




Instant meat missiles in case of accident. Regardless of what the website did or didn't say, didn't the Fickes consider that it was a REALLY REALLY bad idea to have a 3 year old hold an infant?


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #332316 - 01/02/12 04:44 PM

Bill -- We did that, too, from birth, for each. No lapsitters. PITA
carrying the car seat, but we usually needed one at the destination end
anyway for car travel.


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Russell Holton]
      #332317 - 01/02/12 04:51 PM

Russell -- I can understand why just buying another seat doesn't do it (not without the car seat), but I wonder why the crew didn't think it was ok for another adult passenger to care for/hold one of the little ones? Perhaps it was out of concern that while the 3d party would hold the kid for t/o and landing, that the kid would be in the row with the rest of the family at other times and that would pose a problem should there be a decompression event at cruise?

Still, the parents really ought to buy a seat for each human in the family.


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Russell Holton]
      #332321 - 01/02/12 05:05 PM

Quote:

I wouldn't expect anyone to go over the entire website. This sounds like bad website design. Flying with children under 2 isn't so unusual that there shouldn't be some kind of mention/link on it when you go to buy tickets.



If they bought their tickets online (they didn't) the site would have told them that they can't have more babes-in-arms than they have adults over 18.

Of course, many people don't even mention the babes-in-arms to the airline until they're at the airport since they are free. That's why you hear announcements about checking in with the gate agent if you have one and your boarding pass doesn't indicate it.


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #332322 - 01/02/12 05:14 PM

Quote:

but I wonder why the crew didn't think it was ok for another adult passenger to care for/hold one of the little ones?



The policy is that the adult and the babe-in-arms must be traveling together. Makes sense that you wouldn't want babies to be handed over to strangers who could decide to withdraw their cooperation mid-flight if the baby acted up.

Not sure that any regulation addresses this.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #332325 - 01/02/12 05:34 PM

My nieces just came down with 6 month old kids and held them. One is breast feeding. Of course it's safer to strap the kids in, especially for takeoff and landing but the kids certainly don't like it much and usually fuss the whole time. For ones this small, they have to be strapped in back in a car facing the rear. Has to be real entertaining to the kid to look at the seat back the entire trip. Of course, Mom can't do much with the kid in the back facing backward when she's driving. It seems a bit much to me. Somehow I made it without all of that. No reasonable judgement can be used anymore; it's all dictated by you know who.

Best,

Dave


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Russell Holton
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #332327 - 01/02/12 05:43 PM

Quote:

If they bought their tickets online (they didn't) the site would have told them that they can't have more babes-in-arms than they have adults over 18.




According to the linked article: "Parents Jason and Kathy tell ABC that they followed the directions when buying three tickets on the U.S. Airways website"


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Russell Holton
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #332328 - 01/02/12 05:46 PM

Quote:

The policy is that the adult and the babe-in-arms must be traveling together. Makes sense that you wouldn't want babies to be handed over to strangers who could decide to withdraw their cooperation mid-flight if the baby acted up.

Not sure that any regulation addresses this.




I was thinking more along the lines of what happens if the volunteer turns out to be some kind of deviant. Would the airline end up with legal exposure?


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Russell Holton]
      #332329 - 01/02/12 05:49 PM

Quote:

According to the linked article: "Parents Jason and Kathy tell ABC that they followed the directions when buying three tickets on the U.S. Airways website"



No surprise. Different articles had different information. The one I saw indicated that they had purchased the tickets at the airport because they wanted to pay in cash/didn't have credit cards.

I tried to book 1 adult and 2 lap infants on the USAirways web site and got a pop-up that said:
Quote:

We're sorry
•Each adult may travel with a maximum of one infant in lap.



It would not let me proceed until I corrected the adult/infant ratio.


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Russell Holton
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #332332 - 01/02/12 05:53 PM

Quote:

No surprise. Different articles had different information. The one I saw indicated that they had purchased the tickets at the airport because they wanted to pay in cash/didn't have credit cards.




I wonder if they reserved on-line and purchased at the counter.


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Ralph Hood
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332339 - 01/02/12 06:19 PM

ALL:

Of course most of us know the rules--but why do we expect the amateurs to know the rules? Sounds like event the flight crew spent 40 minutes figuring them out.
Ralph H

--------------------
Ralph Hood
www.ralphhood.com


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332340 - 01/02/12 06:20 PM

Quote:

Somehow I made it without all of that.




As someone said of wartime reminiscences, "Remember, you are only talking to the survivors."

I have vivid memories of my 3-year-old sister flying out the door of my aunt's 48 Ford as she made a left turn (fortunately at low speed on a residential street).

--------------------
The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition.
-Carl Sagan


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #332343 - 01/02/12 07:26 PM

I have some bad memories about an accident also Bill, but we try to put these over-reaching things in place for all in all circumstances. Reasonable people continually are being treated like idiots. I certainly agree with seat belts in cars but give me a reasonable way to override or ignore them at times.

My seat belt light and audo in my car repeatedly went off yesterday when my dog hopped on the seat. Clipping the thing together under the dog did no good. I had to put a paper clip in the latch to stop the blasted thing. Happened when I put a pizza on there once. I can't back the car out of the garage to vacuum with out the "YOU ARE DUMB" warning constantly blasting.

I think mandating that little ones sit facing backward in the rear seat is nutso and may be causing some accidents. At some point, Moms and Dads should be advised what's safe and allowed some flexibility to allow for the situation and child.
Secured would be a must, but where and direction to be facing goes too far.

Sorry, just getting tired of engineers trying to dictate what common sense is and these all encompassing, in some cases, overdone, regulations that extend to out toilets, light bulbs, medical choices, etc.

Best,

Dave


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Anne Umphrey (KBED)
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332345 - 01/02/12 07:45 PM

When they are that small they don't know any different than sitting facing the rear/seat back so that position doesn't bother them. If they get antsy handing them a toy or a board book usually solves the problem unless they are hungry/wet/tired. <G>

Anne

--------------------
You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky.
- Amelia Earhart, 1897 - 1937


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Anne Umphrey (KBED)
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332346 - 01/02/12 07:49 PM

Up to a certain age it is good for the infants to be facing backwards. In the event of a sudden stop the baby's head (or child or adult's head) plunges forward. In the case of the infant the neck isn't strong enough, and the head weighs proportionately more for body size and serious injury can occur just from the head being thrust forward. I forget the age at which the neck is strong enough, but before that time it is most important for the infant to face backwards. Maybe it is when the child is old enough to sit up himself thereby being able to support his/her head on the neck.

Anne

--------------------
You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky.
- Amelia Earhart, 1897 - 1937


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Russell Holton]
      #332354 - 01/02/12 08:23 PM

Quote:

I wonder if they reserved on-line and purchased at the counter.



If they entered the infants on the web site the site would have required them to enter at least as many adults as infants. It has separate fields for adults, seniors, children (2-14), infants (in seat), & infants (in lap).

The only way I see for an uninformed passenger to mess it up is to think that they don't have to list the infants since infants don't get a ticket.


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Ralph Hood]
      #332355 - 01/02/12 08:29 PM

Quote:

Of course most of us know the rules--but why do we expect the amateurs to know the rules?



Well, Ralph... They don't seem to have any trouble figuring out that their <2 yr old infants can fly for free. :)

As I pointed out above, the web site does a really good job of making sure that you have an adult for each lap-child.

Quote:

Sounds like event the flight crew spent 40 minutes figuring them out.



It was an unusual situation having that many babes-in-arms. You had the complexity of making sure each person had an O2 mask (4 per row of 3 seats) and you did have a ticketed passenger for each lap-child, just not an adult. I've never heard of someone trying that before. Then they added the idea of having the unrelated passenger take the extra lap-child, but they figured out that was against policy. Then a passenger offered to buy them an extra seat but that required retrieving a checked child seat. Then, apparently, the family decided not to re-board for reasons that I haven't seen detailed.


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332356 - 01/02/12 08:32 PM

Quote:

Sorry, just getting tired of engineers trying to dictate what common sense is and these all encompassing, in some cases, overdone, regulations that extend to out toilets, light bulbs, medical choices, etc.




You're sounding an awful lot like a Libertarian, Dave. :)


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #332359 - 01/02/12 09:35 PM

Don't get me wrong! I don't agree with what they did. Planning on putting an infant on a 3-year-olds' lap doesn't sound too smart to me and shouldn't be allowed. Oxygen mask availability certainly should be considered. But Mom and Dad having a small one on their lab seems acceptable.

I think press releases like this hurt us all. It shouldn't have to be published on a web site. Folks shouldn't be counting on a 3 year-old holding an infant for the length of a flight and being responsible for him/her in an emergency. Now, where is the line? What age?

Best,

Dave


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332361 - 01/02/12 09:48 PM

Quote:

Now, where is the line? What age?



On USAirways, the minimum age to hold a lap-child is 18.


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Russell Holton
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332369 - 01/03/12 12:21 AM

Quote:

Folks shouldn't be counting on a 3 year-old holding an infant for the length of a flight and being responsible for him/her in an emergency.




Is that what they were counting on, or was the plan that one of the parents was going to double-up?


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Russell Holton
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #332370 - 01/03/12 12:26 AM

Quote:

If they entered the infants on the web site the site would have required them to enter at least as many adults as infants. It has separate fields for adults, seniors, children (2-14), infants (in seat), & infants (in lap).

The only way I see for an uninformed passenger to mess it up is to think that they don't have to list the infants since infants don't get a ticket.




That's assuming that
1) US Air hasn't change the website.
2) That they were looking at the same page you were.

I'd like to see if they can find that page again. While they said it was a US Air webpage, I wonder if it was something like Expedia or Travelocity. Once they selected the flight/airline, they thought there were at that company's website when in fact they were still at a third party's site.

Also, if they did buy the tickets at the counter, it seems like a missed opportunity to catch the situation before it got that far. Although I suppose it's possible that only one parent went to the counter.


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Geoff Sjostrom - Chicago
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Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Russell Holton]
      #332390 - 01/03/12 12:36 PM

>>"The option for infants or kids under 2 is not included unless you look at a
>>different part of the website and click again for a further explanation."

>>I wouldn't expect anyone to go over the entire website. This sounds like
>>bad website design.

I went to the main page of the US Airways website and searched for the term
"infant" and the first page listed was "US Airways: Infants & Children".
The first two sentences on that page are, "US Airways defines an infant as a
child less than 2 years (24 months) of age. Infants less than 2 years of age
must be accompanied on all flights and in the same compartment with an adult
at least 18 years of age."

It wasn't that hard.

Geoff Sjostrom


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Russell Holton
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Geoff Sjostrom - Chicago]
      #332392 - 01/03/12 12:52 PM

Quote:

I went to the main page of the US Airways website and searched for the term "infant" and the first page listed was




A good way to find policy, but it's not necessarily what I'd expect someone looking to buy tickets (or create a reservation) to do.


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nehoC hctiM
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Geoff Sjostrom - Chicago]
      #332406 - 01/03/12 07:19 PM

People sometimes turn into complete idiots when traveling.

Some probably don't have the time nor inclination to digest rules, and possibly think they are the kind that rules will be bent for.

--------------------
USA Today said, people over 50 are calmer.


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332410 - 01/03/12 08:42 PM

Quote:

But Mom and Dad having a small one on their lab seems acceptable.

Best,

Dave




You might want to check with the mother from Columbia SC who was holding her 10 month old when the DC9 crashed here in Charlotte a few years ago. She was in the last row. The baby ended up against the forward bulkhead.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #332415 - 01/03/12 09:21 PM

I'd have to know more Bruce. Did the pacs have time to get seat belts on and in the crash ready position? Was Mom holding the infant in the manner appropriate for a crash or was she just negligent. If just negligent, there's little we can do; she could have done something else dumb.

Is there a write up somewhere on it? Did she sue the airline for this?

Best,

Dave


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332419 - 01/03/12 09:50 PM

Quote:

If just negligent, there's little we can do; she could have done something else dumb.

Is there a write up somewhere on it? Did she sue the airline for this?





Really not relevant; if I was the passenger in 6B who took a hit at 18,000,000 ft. lbs., the intent of the mother in row 22 really isn't of interest to me.

That's why we have rules.

--------------------
The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition.
-Carl Sagan


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #332420 - 01/03/12 10:01 PM

Quote:

DC9 crashed here in Charlotte a few years ago



1994. Over 17 years... Doesn't seem that long ago.


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332421 - 01/03/12 10:08 PM

Quote:

Did the pacs have time to get seat belts on and in the crash ready position? Was Mom holding the infant in the manner appropriate for a crash or was she just negligent



They were landing. The passengers would be in the normal condition for a turbulent landing.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19940702-0

In a crash like that the forces are such that even Hulk Hogan couldn't hold on to a baby. The g-forces would rip them right out of the strongest, most prepared person's arms. It's like the people who think they don't need to wear a seatbelt in the car because if there's an accident they'll be able to brace themselves.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #332423 - 01/03/12 10:47 PM

Quote:

even Hulk Hogan couldn't hold on to a baby. The g-forces would rip them right out of the strongest, most prepared person's arms.[/quote

Sad but true, concur! Reminded me of a few pickups I've seen in some junkyards, guys had nailed down or otherwise supported concrete blocks or other weights in the box to serve as weight back there in the box. I saw the glass gone from the rear of the cabs, then bloody windshields gone also, decapitated the occupants in a collision.

best, randy

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #332426 - 01/03/12 11:36 PM

How often does something like that occur? Should we impose that on everyone for that one instance? Tragic, but how much to we force restraint for an incident like this?

Taking infants out of the control of Mom's is pretty harsh. They have the option to purchase a seat and put the youngster in it, don't they? So, they've decided not to. Do you think it's an economic decision--Mom or Dad can't afford the extra seat?

Why is the current policy allowed.

Off topic, BTW I just noticed my 2012 calendar ends at the same time as the Mayan one! Oh NO!!

Best,

Dave


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332427 - 01/03/12 11:42 PM

Quote:

How often does something like that occur?




BTSOM, C! All I know is that seeing that blood where the windshield used to be convinced me.

best, randy


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #332431 - 01/04/12 02:45 AM

Arms shouldn't matter in the brace position. Mom should have her seat belt tight and it seems the child is to be cradled. We all know the plane will suddenly decelerate and one wants to do that firmly attached to the frame with one's head forward to stop impact with the seat in front. The child should travel no farther forward than the seat in front unless there are significant side forces. This is why I asked if she was in the proper position for impact. A child seat belt is recommended here, but the FAA believes it may cause more injury to the child.

Best,

Dave


The brace procedure for the forward-facing seat in the United States is similar to that of the UK, but rather than placing the hands on the back of the head, passengers are advised to place them on the top of the seat in front, one hand holding the other wrist and resting the head in the space between the arms. If the seat in front is not within reach then passengers are advised to either grab their ankles or place their hands under their legs and grab the opposite forearm.

Infants

If carrying an infant on a lap, it is generally recommended that above positions should be adopted as best as possible, cradling the child with one arm and using this to also protect the child's head. In the UK, lap children are instructed to wear an infant safety belt which is a separate seat belt with a loop that connects to the parent's belt; however, in the United States such belts are not permitted by FAA regulations. The FAA believes that such baby belts significantly increases the risk of injury to the child.[2][3] In the early era of commercial aviation, the recommended brace position for children was on the floor against a bulkhead; this has since been amended due to the position's lack of protection. The safest position for an infant is in an aviation certified child safety seat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brace_position


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Kcid LlirreM
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 4110
Loc: Chuckey, TN
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332434 - 01/04/12 08:57 AM

Better sell the Baron while there are still buyers(G)

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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 8276
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332440 - 01/04/12 11:01 AM

Quote:

Mom or Dad can't afford the extra seat?



A lot of them probably think that since it's legal it must be safe.

Quote:

Why is the current policy allowed.



The FAA and DOT believe that by requiring the CRS, which means buying an additional ticket, would result in more families choosing to drive instead of fly. Since flying is safer than driving, they reason that more children would be injured or killed driving than are currently injured or killed flying unrestrained.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Reged: 05/17/04
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #332441 - 01/04/12 11:37 AM

Quote:


Quote:

Why is the current policy allowed.



The FAA and DOT believe that by requiring the CRS, which means buying an additional ticket, would result in more families choosing to drive instead of fly. Since flying is safer than driving, they reason that more children would be injured or killed driving than are currently injured or killed flying unrestrained.




I can see young Moms trying to carry car seats on board now <g>. Let's see, purse, diaper bag, carry-on bag, car seat and oh yea--baby! You should have seen what my nieces took through carry on. Isn't one of the biggest things that affect load/unload times the amount of folks putting up and getting their stuff?

I guess babies would have to sit on window seats; who would want to try to get in and out on the other side of a baby in a car seat strapped in?

Best,

Dave


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7236
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #332442 - 01/04/12 12:16 PM

Quote:



I have vivid memories of my 3-year-old sister flying out the door of my aunt's 48 Ford as she made a left turn (fortunately at low speed on a residential street).




I was about that age when I flew out of the back seat of my Dad's 47 Chrysler. Fortunately, it was winter and I was well padded in a thick snowsuit. They took me to Grandma's (she was a nurse) and checked me out and I guess I was OK, although to this day my wife thinks that might be what is wrong with me <VBG>.

--------------------
There was no nothing before the Big Bang, because there was no before.-Adolf Grunbaum.


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 17410
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #332444 - 01/04/12 12:30 PM

When I was a kid, on long car trips I liked to lie on the shelf at the top of the rear seat...

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7236
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #332447 - 01/04/12 02:07 PM

Quote:

When I was a kid, on long car trips I liked to lie on the shelf at the top of the rear seat...




Yep, I spent some time on the back shelf too.

Dad's cars starting with his '53 Chrysler, had a fold-down center arm rest. The '53 had a front bench seat, the arm rest unfolded out of the seat back. That was my seat! I could see over the dash sitting there and had a good view!

During a panic stop or accident my face would have been joined to the heater controls and the radio, if not the windshield, but nobody ever thought of those things back then....

Now that I think about it, that was the car we installed our own seat belts on, and I think we put three sets in the front. I probably was strapped in to that arm rest perch.

--------------------
There was no nothing before the Big Bang, because there was no before.-Adolf Grunbaum.


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Geoff Sjostrom - Chicago
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 4272
Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Russell Holton]
      #332452 - 01/04/12 02:38 PM

>>A good way to find policy, but it's not necessarily what I'd expect someone
>>looking to buy tickets (or create a reservation) to do.

If I wanted to get somebody on an airliner without paying for a ticket, I'd
be certain to check on the company's policies.

Geoff


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7236
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #332454 - 01/04/12 02:50 PM

The most gruesome wreck I have ever seen happened on a seriously foggy day at the corner of Wright Brothers Boulevard and 6th street in Cedar Rapids, about a mile from the airport.

A guy in a pickup blew thru an invisible stop sign at the intersection and went under a 40-foot trailer (semi going thru the intersection) which took off the whole cab and the driver's head. Terrible accident. The state trooper first on the scene was heaving his guts on the shoulder of the road..

--------------------
There was no nothing before the Big Bang, because there was no before.-Adolf Grunbaum.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 17982
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #332458 - 01/04/12 03:32 PM

Quote:

The most gruesome wreck I have ever seen.........pickup blew thru an invisible stop sign at the intersection and went under a 40-foot trailer (semi ......took off the whole cab and the driver's head[/quote

Yup, concur, saw one just like that also, some wag in the squadron called it "making an instant convertable".

best, randy

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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 18193
Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #332459 - 01/04/12 03:37 PM

Mase - Having been weaned on 12 o'Clock High (my dad and I watched the
series every Monday (?) night), I always stood on the "hump" and hung over
the front seat between my parents to watch what was going on. All I needed
was a top turret and I would have been even more happy.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 17982
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #332462 - 01/04/12 04:24 PM

Quote:

called it "making an instant convertable".

best, randy




Just happened now to recall also "Whatwaszisname" and Mimi at Aloha Airlines and their 737. Also we all gotta give thanks that Scott's folks never had a bad head-on collision.

best, randy


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
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Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #332472 - 01/04/12 07:28 PM

As I remember, she did sue, but it didn't get far. And, no, the pax weren't braced. It was a windshear encounter on landing.The mother was negligent in that she didn't buy a seat for her daughter.

In any case, there is no way that any human being would be able to restrain an infant in the case of a crash (up to 20 g of deceleration). It's simply not very smart to not have that baby in a car seat. If you can't afford the seat, then you probably shouldn't go.

Edited by Bruce Gorrell [CLT, mostly] (01/04/12 07:31 PM)


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 4762
Loc: Maryland
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Anne Umphrey (KBED)]
      #332489 - 01/05/12 09:57 AM

Actually it is a good idea for all pax to be facing backwards for the same reason.

The Brits used to have all airline pax seats facing backwards. In the USAF, if they put the pax seat pallets in the C-141s, they seats face rearward.

Hard to do that for the crew. :)

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 4762
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Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #332490 - 01/05/12 10:08 AM

Quote:

It's like the people who think they don't need to wear a seatbelt in the car because if there's an accident they'll be able to brace themselves.




When I teach my safe driving class I address this by asking if anyone thinks they can brace themselves and prevent their face from hitting the pavement when jumping off a 2 story building (about 20 feet). Of course they say no way. So I then ask if they have any idea how fast they would be going whenthey hit the ground after than same fall (2 stories or 20 feet). Most think 60 - 100 MPH. The real number is about 25 MPH (40 KPH). So a 25 MPH collision will have you hitting the dash at the same speed as jumping off a 2 story building. It gets their attention.

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 17982
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #332498 - 01/05/12 10:52 AM

Quote:


Hard to do that for the crew. :)




Which is why I inserted/used all 5 points on the harnesses.

best, randy


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7236
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #332504 - 01/05/12 12:39 PM

Quote:

Actually it is a good idea for all pax to be facing backwards for the same reason.

The Brits used to have all airline pax seats facing backwards. In the USAF, if they put the pax seat pallets in the C-141s, they seats face rearward.

Hard to do that for the crew. :)




The AF had what we called an "Embassy kit." Sort of a pre-fab passenger cabin on pallets for the C-141, complete with seats, lavs, galley, etc. And the seats indeed did face backwards. No windows <G>.

It was used largely for civilian VIP transport.

--------------------
There was no nothing before the Big Bang, because there was no before.-Adolf Grunbaum.


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Kcid LlirreM
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 4110
Loc: Chuckey, TN
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #332521 - 01/05/12 02:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Actually it is a good idea for all pax to be facing backwards for the same reason.

The Brits used to have all airline pax seats facing backwards. In the USAF, if they put the pax seat pallets in the C-141s, they seats face rearward.

Hard to do that for the crew. :)




The AF had what we called an "Embassy kit." Sort of a pre-fab passenger cabin on pallets for the C-141, complete with seats, lavs, galley, etc. And the seats indeed did face backwards. No windows <G>.

It was used largely for civilian VIP transport.




Hope you didn't have to install/uninstall the lav(G)


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 17982
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #332523 - 01/05/12 02:51 PM

Quote:


The AF had what we called an "Embassy kit." Sort of a pre-fab passenger cabin on pallets for the C-141, complete with seats, lavs, galley, etc. And the seats indeed did face backwards. No windows <G>.




IIRC, we had one like that for 30365, a MN ANG C-97G, the govenor's airplane.

best, randy


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7236
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #332524 - 01/05/12 02:51 PM

Quote:

Hope you didn't have to install/uninstall the lav(G)




I don't remember the specifics.

My guys, the cargo guys, (605X1 AFSC) installed and locked the pallets in place (removed and stored them after use). All the electric and plumbing hookups were done by the wonderful AF mechanics. And any catering/stocking/beverages were handled by the PAX Service guys and food service guys & gals. And of course there was a different specialty group for inflight service, I don't think the loadmaster served food or drinks <G>.

C-141s could also be configured as medevac flights with stretchers and seats. In fact, that is how I got home, wearing blue pajamas, with an overnight at Yokata and another at Anchorage. Ended up at the Navy hospital at Great Lakes where they had no idea what to do with me and finally decided to send me to Chanute AFB at Rantoul IL.

--------------------
There was no nothing before the Big Bang, because there was no before.-Adolf Grunbaum.


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 17410
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #332525 - 01/05/12 02:55 PM

Likewise the Navy COD I rode in a while back. It really made the cat launch fun...;-)

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 4762
Loc: Maryland
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #332536 - 01/05/12 03:50 PM

Quote:

Which is why I inserted/used all 5 points on the harnesses.

best, randy




That doesn't stop the neck stretch issues. In fact, may make them worse.

See the other thread about HANS devices. :)

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 4762
Loc: Maryland
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #332537 - 01/05/12 03:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Actually it is a good idea for all pax to be facing backwards for the same reason.

The Brits used to have all airline pax seats facing backwards. In the USAF, if they put the pax seat pallets in the C-141s, they seats face rearward.

Hard to do that for the crew. :)




The AF had what we called an "Embassy kit." Sort of a pre-fab passenger cabin on pallets for the C-141, complete with seats, lavs, galley, etc. And the seats indeed did face backwards. No windows <G>.

It was used largely for civilian VIP transport.




They also installed just the seats for other users.

We did a deployment and for the ground support guys and stuff (and some pilots) they used a C-141 with one or two pallets of seats.

No lav, galley, or catering. :)

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 17982
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Oh to be an airline pilot at Xmas [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #332539 - 01/05/12 04:02 PM

Quote:


That doesn't stop the neck stretch issues. In fact, may make them worse.

See the other thread about HANS devices. :)




Concur!

best, randy


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