AVSIG: Pilots Sleeping on the Job wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 11777
Loc: NY
Re: Pilots Sleeping on the Job [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #269133 - 10/21/09 04:42 PM

Mitch,

<< There are still people that get hypoxic at that altitude, such as smokers. >>

I seem to recall that smoking "adds" about 5,000 ft to your altitude.

--------------------
Best,

Bob


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Pilots Sleeping on the Job [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #269272 - 10/21/09 11:17 PM

I haven't seen anyone have trouble that low.

But I do remember one trip in a 182 where you had to climb for weather, legal, but definitely into the exact rule limits.

I was left seat, with the right seat guy flying under the hood (CFII practice), and another pilot in the back.

I noticed the pilot flying start nodding and losing head/neck control. I looked back and the guy in the back was fast asleep. I was fine. And yes, I know the symptoms and what MY reaction is to altitude. :)

A few more minutes and we were able to decend. Noding stop and the guy in the back woke up. :)

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Dean Gibson [PAE]
Public Guest


Reged: 06/05/05
Posts: 263
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: Pilots Sleeping on the Job [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #270204 - 10/27/09 11:00 PM

Quote:

...
Sometimes a ten or fifteen minute power nap can make you much more alert at crucial moments of the flight such as approach and landings.



Reminds me of an IFR flight in 1970 in my first Bonanza, late, late at night (VFR conditions) from KELP to KTOA (in the LAX area), with a non-IFR-rated co-pilot: I was tired and asked him if he would like to fly the airplane while I took a nap. I told him to wake me if ATC called. He said yes, and I got my naps. He told me later what kept him wide awake was the possibility of ATC calling and he not being able to wake me quickly enough.

I got my rest (albeit in segments), and was alert for the final segment in the LAX airspace and the actual IFR approach into KTOA. Despite his really wanting to see a real actual IFR approach, he fell asleep during the approach.

This was my first introduction into the issues of long flights and sleep. In later years in my second Bonanza (which had an autopilot and GPS), feeding off of the small tip tanks during cruise provided the necessary "NOTAMs" a couple times.

In the Delta incident, the laptop story make no sense, and I can't imagine a worse story to make up (so maybe it's true). At least if you claim sleeping, you get some sympathy.

I wonder if a NASA ASRS report will help these guys ...

--------------------
Airman data & and aviation biography


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Anne Umphrey (KBED)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 12756
Loc: KBED
Re: Pilots Sleeping on the Job [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #271033 - 11/01/09 10:22 AM

Interesting. I just came back from northern NM. I noticed that when we went over high passes I began yawning. Didn't feel sleepy, but I'm guessing that the yawning was the body's trying to bring in more oxygen. I also noticed that I didn't seem to mind going from sea level to 7000' +. I guess my often flying at 2-3K feet must help.

Anne

--------------------
You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky.
- Amelia Earhart, 1897 - 1937


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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: Pilots Sleeping on the Job [Re: Anne Umphrey (KBED)]
      #271139 - 11/01/09 10:40 PM

Anne,

You have noticed a valid concern.

We are flying our new commercial jets at a much higher altitude than was the case about 20 years ago. Better engines, higher power ratios with 2 engine large aircraft, and we just climb up to 350 or higher after takeoff. FL 390 is often the final altitude.

If it's a long flight, the passengers are quickly living at 6,000-8,000 feet for a period of time -perhaps a long period of time. Note: some of the newer big jets have a higher pressure differential so this might not be quite the case in the future.

Still, with the old B-747's on a long flight, we would likely level at FL 290 for a few hours, then climb for the remander of the flight. We always keep the cabin at max differential, so for the first few hours the passengers were at perhaps below 5,000 feet cabin-or a bit lower.

It would be interesting to have a study of the length of time at high cabin altitude with the new B-777 type of aircraft.

I know, that sea level passengers would tend to get sleepy if we kept them at 6,000-7,000 feet cabin for a long flight. (OK pilots too I guess).

Regards,

Dux -needing a nap for sure


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nehoC hctiM
Top Gun


Reged: 08/03/04
Posts: 2293
Loc: LAX Based 10/2016 - Current YA...
Re: Pilots Sleeping on the Job [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #271142 - 11/01/09 11:13 PM

Quote:

Anne,

You have noticed a valid concern.

We are flying our new commercial jets at a much higher altitude than was the case about 20 years ago. Better engines, higher power ratios with 2 engine large aircraft, and we just climb up to 350 or higher after takeoff. FL 390 is often the final altitude.

If it's a long flight, the passengers are quickly living at 6,000-8,000 feet for a period of time -perhaps a long period of time. Note: some of the newer big jets have a higher pressure differential so this might not be quite the case in the future.

Still, with the old B-747's on a long flight, we would likely level at FL 290 for a few hours, then climb for the remander of the flight. We always keep the cabin at max differential, so for the first few hours the passengers were at perhaps below 5,000 feet cabin-or a bit lower.

It would be interesting to have a study of the length of time at high cabin altitude with the new B-777 type of aircraft.

I know, that sea level passengers would tend to get sleepy if we kept them at 6,000-7,000 feet cabin for a long flight. (OK pilots too I guess).

Regards,

Dux -needing a nap for sure




My typical flight is at 38,000 or 39,000 with cabin altitudes of between 7000 and 7500 ft nearly the entire flight, longest about 4 hrs.

--------------------
USA Today said, people over 50 are calmer.


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: Pilots Sleeping on the Job [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #271289 - 11/02/09 05:12 PM

Ours is sea level at FL240 up to 6800 at FL450.

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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: Pilots Sleeping on the Job [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #271346 - 11/02/09 10:49 PM

Hi Bruce

What airplane are you talking about?

A B-777?

Regards,

Dux


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: Pilots Sleeping on the Job [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #271497 - 11/03/09 04:50 PM

No, a mere Citation XL. We can go slow at very high altitudes.

I think (but don't know) that the Citation X has an 8000' cabin at FL510.


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