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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Turbine P-Baron
      #190655 - 03/29/08 02:09 PM

The folks at Rocket Engineering have been working on converting a P-Baron to a twin turbine with -21 (PT-6s). Sent me some info and it looks impressive on paper. They claim a rate of climb as fast as 5,000 fpm and high speed cruise at FL250 over over 300 knots. If anyone would like to see what they sent me, send me a private message with your e-mail address and I'll forward a copy.

They are supposed to be test flying the first one in a couple weeks and I'm told the folks from Twin & Turbine will do a demo flight with them soon.

Best,

Dave


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Tony Williams [MYF]
Public Guest


Reged: 05/28/04
Posts: 798
Loc: San Diego, California or Baghd...
Re: Turbine P-Baron [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #201551 - 06/15/08 01:19 AM

Is that the P-Baron that's sitting at Carlsbad, CA ?

--------------------
Tailwinds always,

Tony Williams


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Turbine P-Baron [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #201572 - 06/15/08 09:11 AM

Dave,

I assumed they are using their Duke package, when I google Rocket Engineering I got more hits with you in them than the owner of the company. You should get a discount for marketing!

(side note) Tony, you moved to the 120 from the CRJ..?
It'll build up your arms..<G>

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Turbine P-Baron [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #201577 - 06/15/08 09:49 AM

Quote:

Dave,

I assumed they are using their Duke package, when I google Rocket Engineering I got more hits with you in them than the owner of the company. You should get a discount for marketing!

(side note) Tony, you moved to the 120 from the CRJ..?
It'll build up your arms..<G>




I certainly did circulate their material, but like to think I tempered it with a third party view to some extent <g>

Like all paper planes, it looks good. Of course, there are some things one should know. I need to e-mail them again and get an update, but they were trying to move the top of the green arc up to 206 to 207 knots so the plane could legally cruise near 300 TAS at FL250. I spoke with someone on a standards committee that offered that might be difficult. If Rocket doesn't get that, high speed cruise would certainly be slower. Of course, high speed cruise is more to show off. Long range cruise would be more practical.

They've had a couple issues that the Duke guys are waiting to have addressed. Any time one goes to a boutique with a STC, they have to wonder about service after the sale. Rocket has a great reputation, but servicing a small number of conversions might not get top priority. Then, one would have to get the plane back up to Washington. They've raised the price from what I was first told.

Anyway, for someone like me with a nice P-Baron, it's interesting. Like everything: there are pros and cons.

Best,

Dave


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Turbine P-Baron [Re: Tony Williams [MYF]]
      #201578 - 06/15/08 09:51 AM

Quote:

Is that the P-Baron that's sitting at Carlsbad, CA ?




Tony: last I heard it was up in Washington, but I need to get an update.

Best,

Dave


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Rick Durden
Top Gun


Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 4366
Re: Turbine P-Baron [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #201591 - 06/15/08 11:23 AM

Dave,

I'm curious about range and useful load - the horrendous problem of the small airframes and turbine engines is the inability to carry enough fuel for decent range and still be able to put something in the cabin. It pretty much meant the turbine P210 and Bonanza wouldn't really work out; Piper only recently solved the issue on the Meridian by installing VGs to get the stall speed under control so now it will take three plus baggage when full of gas (1,000 nm VFR range, plus or minus 850 IFR) and no matter what, you've got to get up in the 20s to get any range and endurance.

My other area of curiousity is airframe changes needed for the speeds desired - when Riley put together a turbine version of the Cessna 421 it just didn't work; the airframe wasn't designed for that kind of horsepower - when Cessna made the 425 it only superficially resembled the 421 due to all the changes that had to be made to the airframe to handle the power upgrade. When Piper developed the Meridian from the Malibu/Mirage the only thing that wound up being common the fuselage....

Warmest regards,
Rick


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Turbine P-Baron [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #201602 - 06/15/08 12:48 PM

Dave,

There is also the insurance problem (maybe), unless someone builds a sim.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Turbine P-Baron [Re: Rick Durden]
      #201603 - 06/15/08 12:53 PM Attachment (875 downloads)

Quote:

Dave,

I'm curious about range and useful load - the horrendous problem of the small airframes and turbine engines is the inability to carry enough fuel for decent range and still be able to put something in the cabin. It pretty much meant the turbine P210 and Bonanza wouldn't really work out; Piper only recently solved the issue on the Meridian by installing VGs to get the stall speed under control so now it will take three plus baggage when full of gas (1,000 nm VFR range, plus or minus 850 IFR) and no matter what, you've got to get up in the 20s to get any range and endurance.

My other area of curiousity is airframe changes needed for the speeds desired - when Riley put together a turbine version of the Cessna 421 it just didn't work; the airframe wasn't designed for that kind of horsepower - when Cessna made the 425 it only superficially resembled the 421 due to all the changes that had to be made to the airframe to handle the power upgrade. When Piper developed the Meridian from the Malibu/Mirage the only thing that wound up being common the fuselage....

Warmest regards,
Rick




Rick:

I had asked about the range and the representation made wasn't bad. I'd have to go back to my notes, but the factory P-Baron carries 190 useful. Darwin was going to add fuel in the nacelle which would bring it up to 230 to 235 IIRC. You probably know more about the -21 burn rate than I do. Of course, numbers were projected on getting up to FL250 fast.

One could pull the power back to a long range fuel burn and get better range, over 1,000NM according to him.

I share your concerns about the airframe; Darwin represents it as being robust. Please understand that I've only briefly looked into this as a potential customer. Haven't been out there, haven't flown the bird and am not a test pilot. I have attached an e-mail from him and his spec sheet. I certainly welcome other folk's thoughts. Don't think I'm headed in this direction right now because my business is in the toilet, but who knows.

Best,

Dave

Edited by Dave Siciliano (ADS) (06/15/08 01:03 PM)


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Turbine P-Baron [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #201604 - 06/15/08 12:55 PM Attachment (504 downloads)

Here are some discussion notes and an e-mail from Darwin (attached).

Best,

Dave


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Turbine P-Baron [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #201605 - 06/15/08 01:00 PM

Quote:

Dave,

There is also the insurance problem (maybe), unless someone builds a sim.




Jeff:

Excellent point! All I can say is I asked about that. I didn't check with my agent as I wasn't far enough along to get that detailed. Darwin says it hasn't been an issue on the Malibu or Duke conversions they've done.

Since I do attend annual recurrent training at SIMCOM, I would have to see if that would be accepted in the future if I went that direction.

Best,

Dave


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