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Tom Gresham (HDC)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 1769
Loc: Louisiana
Bonanza Price REDUCED 14%
      #140593 - 01/16/07 11:53 AM

Beech has announced that it has reduced the price of the G36 Bonanza by 14 percent for 2007!

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Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 11777
Loc: NY
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #140597 - 01/16/07 12:29 PM

Tom,

<<Beech has announced that it has reduced the price of the G36 Bonanza by 14 percent for 2007! >>

That's a BIG drop, as in, $80-90k.

You still get SO much more for your money buying used. There are low time well equipped early '90's Bo's out there in the $200's.

--------------------
Best,

Bob


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Sean Franklin
Top Gun


Reged: 08/15/04
Posts: 2566
Loc: Eureka Springs, Arkansas
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Robert Mann [HPN-NY]]
      #140601 - 01/16/07 01:23 PM

Quote:

You still get SO much more for your money buying used.



There's such a thing as penny-wise, pound-foolish though. If being used for business there are a lot of benefits to new. Even without tax benefits, you get warranty, reliability, and the ability to choose exactly how it's outfitted without spending the time, effort, and money for a complete retrofit. Plus there's the smell :)

I considered new for my current airplane but since I don't plan to keep it long (just using it to build complex/retract time) I went with a 2000 model. I hope to go new with the next one, which will be a "long-term" airplane.

--------------------
Eureka Springs, Arkansas


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Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 11777
Loc: NY
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Sean Franklin]
      #140610 - 01/16/07 03:33 PM

Sean,

<<There's such a thing as penny-wise, pound-foolish though. If being used for business there are a lot of benefits to new. Even without tax benefits, you get warranty, reliability, and the ability to choose exactly how it's outfitted without spending the time, effort, and money for a complete retrofit. Plus there's the smell :)>>

Sean, I don't doubt for a second that new is nice. But new comes at a steep price. I have a hard time seeing how it falls into the category of "penny-wise pound-foolish". I'm not comparing it to buying a 40 yr old airplane with 8,000 TTA. I am comparing it to buying a 10 yr old airplane with about 1,000 TT. That airplane will cost you about ONE-HALF of what a new one costs, or a savings, in the case of an A36, of about $300,000. That $300,000 can cover the cost of non-warrantied repairs, an upgraded panel, a new P&I if needed (it probably is NOT needed), get the plane outfitted exactly how you choose (to the extent it's not already) and leave you enough change to buy AVGAS for the rest of your life.

Tax benefits? I'm a tax lawyer. I have yet to meet my first client who has deducted his way into prosperity. The used airplane has lower expenses and lower writeoffs. You gotta pay a dollar to get 35 cents in tax benefits. You'll never get rich that way.

Having said all of this, if saving or spending the $300,000 is not going to change your life one way or the other, then go for it and buy the new one. If you have other things you could use that $300,000 for, then buy the 1995 model with 1,000 TT.

--------------------
Best,

Bob


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Gil Buettner [KAUW]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 2847
Loc: Gateway to the Northwoods
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Robert Mann [HPN-NY]]
      #140612 - 01/16/07 03:48 PM

Quote:

I have yet to meet my first client who has deducted his way into prosperity.




I am constantly astounded by the folks who focus on deductions as a way of justifying the way they part with their hard-earned cash.

--------------------
-Gil


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Joe Budge (W29)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 7423
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Sean Franklin]
      #140617 - 01/16/07 04:11 PM

Quote:

I hope to go new with the next one, which will be a "long-term" airplane.




oh, yeah... sure....

Regards,
Joe


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Sean Franklin
Top Gun


Reged: 08/15/04
Posts: 2566
Loc: Eureka Springs, Arkansas
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Robert Mann [HPN-NY]]
      #140630 - 01/16/07 05:19 PM

Quote:

...a 10 yr old airplane with about 1,000 TT. That airplane will cost you about ONE-HALF of what a new one costs, or a savings, in the case of an A36, of about $300,000.



Same can be said about buying a used car, or used just-about-anything. While absolutely true, in raw dollars-and-cents, there are drawbacks as well.

Your 10-year-old 'Bo - How's it been run? At my 250+ hours per year, it could be engine rebuild time within a year or two, if it wasn't treated right - and a pre-buy isn't a guarantee of finding out whether it'll happen or not. I can either charter or fly commercial for a few weeks during rebuild, or pay the extra for a factory reman to minimize downtime; either will cost me some big bucks. My theoretical new 'Bo should last me 7 years or more before that kind of maintenance.

Want a solid-state ADHRS and current avionics? 6-figure upgrade for your 10-year-old. Fully integrated autopilot that won't stall the airplane in a high-altitude climb? Sorry, not an option... but both are standard on a G36.

The best-case used airplane is run-out engine, good airframe, original panel. Gut-strip the panel and redo it from scratch, put in a new engine, fully refurb the interior while you're at it. This is especially ideal if your mission is best suited by a design no longer available new, like a 210 or a cabin-class piston twin... you'll have a reliable and modern airplane, but just like a new airplane, you'll "lose" money on it immediately.

--------------------
Eureka Springs, Arkansas


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Kcid LlirreM
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 4768
Loc: Chuckey, TN
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Robert Mann [HPN-NY]]
      #140649 - 01/16/07 07:15 PM

"Tax benefits? I'm a tax lawyer. I have yet to meet my first client who has deducted his way into prosperity. The used airplane has lower expenses and lower writeoffs. You gotta pay a dollar to get 35 cents in tax benefits. You'll never get rich that way."

It always amazes me how many don't understand this. Go ahead and buy a new expensive plane or car it's deductable!


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Jon Carlson
Public Guest


Reged: 11/24/06
Posts: 60
Loc: San Carlos, CA
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Sean Franklin]
      #140651 - 01/16/07 07:23 PM

Quote:

At my 250+ hours per year, it could be engine rebuild time within a year or two, if it wasn't treated right .... My theoretical new 'Bo should last me 7 years or more before that kind of maintenance.



I know secondhand of a guy who bought a brand new Bo (A36) not too long ago and had cylinder problems up the wazzou after a short number of hours (250-ish) twice, which resulted in a fair amount of downtime while he had to fight with TCM over warranty coverage.

So... new isn't necessarily a solution to the possibility of downtime. The "theoretical new 'Bo" doesn't really exist, they can still have issues in the "reality" version.

--------------------
-Jon C.


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Kcid LlirreM
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 4768
Loc: Chuckey, TN
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Jon Carlson]
      #140654 - 01/16/07 07:43 PM

We are looking at used A36's and Sr-22s. I consider any airplane with a TCM engine to be runout at 1000 hours. (many we have looked at show a TOH at 500 hours since new).

We are looking for something to take to Ada and have the TAT treatment.

Dick


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Stephanie Belser
Top Gun APC


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 5929
Loc: KFAM
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #140697 - 01/17/07 07:59 AM

This is the news release by Raytheon.

Still, at $1.046 million for a Baron and one can buy a current-year Eclipse position for $1.2 million.... <shrug>

Stephanie


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #140735 - 01/17/07 12:43 PM

Quote:

It always amazes me how many don't understand this. Go ahead and buy a new expensive plane or car it's deductable!




And then there's the attitude that "big business" can just "write off" expenses or losses so it's "okay" to steal from them or force them to pay for things, etc.


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Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 11777
Loc: NY
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #140741 - 01/17/07 01:15 PM

Larry,

<<And then there's the attitude that "big business" can just "write off" expenses or losses so it's "okay" to steal from them or force them to pay for things, etc. >>

Do you remember the Seinfeld episode where Kramer wants to commit insurance fraud against the Post Office, and he dismisses it all by repeatedly saying, "It's a writeoff." Finally, Jerry says to him, "You don't even know what a 'writeoff" is, do you?" Kramer shrugs his shoulders and says "no".

--------------------
Best,

Bob


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Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 11777
Loc: NY
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #140742 - 01/17/07 01:16 PM

Larry,

<<And then there's the attitude that "big business" can just "write off" expenses >>

Yes, Writeoff = Dollar for Dollar Reimbursement

--------------------
Best,

Bob


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Robert Mann [HPN-NY]]
      #140744 - 01/17/07 01:42 PM

Quote:

Do you remember the Seinfeld episode where Kramer wants to commit insurance fraud against the Post Office, and he dismisses it all by repeatedly saying, "It's a writeoff." Finally, Jerry says to him, "You don't even know what a 'writeoff" is, do you?" Kramer shrugs his shoulders and says "no".




Yep. That was hilarious!

For anybody who still likes the "deductible" plan... For every dollar you give me I'll pay a full 50 of your taxes! That's close to double the deal you get from the IRS! :)


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Curtis Sanford (SQL)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/09/04
Posts: 686
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #140792 - 01/17/07 08:55 PM

Quote:

Beech has announced that it has reduced the price of the G36 Bonanza by 14 percent for 2007!




Wow, what kind of effect does that have on a long-tail used market as the Bonanza has? When Cirrus makes a price change, it ripples through the used market very quickly.


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Walter Atkinson
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 579
Loc: Vail, Colorado
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #140850 - 01/18/07 09:46 AM

Quote:

We are looking at used A36's and Sr-22s. I consider any airplane with a TCM engine to be runout at 1000 hours. (many we have looked at show a TOH at 500 hours since new).

We are looking for something to take to Ada and have the TAT treatment.

Dick




Dick:

If you need a big, roomy, fast load-hauler, get the TAT Bonanza. If you don't the TNSR-22 is one heck of a fine choice. It's all about YOUR mission. My mission is the TNA36. Curt's is the TNSR-22--even though he ain't got one yet! <VBG>

The problem is that, as of now, you can't get a used SR-22 and TAT it. Cirrus is buying every kit that TAT can make--every day. Demand? What demand?

--------------------
Walter Atkinson
It's not the miles you've traveled; it's the stops you've made.


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Tom Gresham (HDC)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 1769
Loc: Louisiana
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Walter Atkinson]
      #140858 - 01/18/07 10:43 AM

There are a few TN Bonanzas for sale. From what I see, the price/value ratio is very good.

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Philip Krupp
Public Guest


Reged: 05/14/04
Posts: 1495
Loc: Medina, OH
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Gil Buettner [KAUW]]
      #142994 - 02/08/07 08:02 AM

Gil,

Maybe they think of it as a 35% return on their money (or 15, or 25 whatever).

--------------------
Philip


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Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 11777
Loc: NY
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Philip Krupp]
      #143002 - 02/08/07 08:27 AM

Phil,

<<Maybe they think of it as a 35% return on their money (or 15, or 25 whatever). >>

Maybe they do, but they're deluding themselves if they think they're getting any "return" on their money.

--------------------
Best,

Bob


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Philip Krupp
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Reged: 05/14/04
Posts: 1495
Loc: Medina, OH
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Robert Mann [HPN-NY]]
      #158623 - 06/16/07 01:03 PM

Yo, Bob.

Of course they're deluded.

It's a 35% return as in, "give me your money and I'll return 35% of it back to you!" Heck of a deal.

--------------------
Philip


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Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 11777
Loc: NY
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Philip Krupp]
      #158628 - 06/16/07 02:07 PM

Yo Phil,

<<Yo, Bob.
Of course they're deluded.
It's a 35% return as in, "give me your money and I'll return 35% of it back to you!" Heck of a deal. >>

Where have you been since February? I had to go back and refresh my recollection of what you were responding to.

But back to the point, yes, it never ceases to amaze me how people think they can deduct their way into wealth and prosperity. It's 2nd grade math, but it's still news to many adults.

--------------------
Best,

Bob


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Tom Pelz [OVS]
Public Guest


Reged: 11/27/04
Posts: 18
Loc: Wisconsin
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Robert Mann [HPN-NY]]
      #183672 - 02/02/08 09:12 PM

Interesting discussion.

This goes to show that someone can justify whatever they want to.

I have often considered buying a newer Bonanza. (I have a 1959K35). Every time I come close to doing it, I find that upgrading my airframe will not give me any more than I already have and I will then have to spend a lot more money to bring the new airplane up to the condition of my "old" airplane.

Granted, my 1959 has 6000 plus hours on the airframe, but I have maintained it well.

I have a digital autopilot, a 430W, a moving map, weather, tip tanks, large wheels, brakes, and now installing a 550B.

To get what I have in a V35B, I would have to try to sell my airplane or trade it at a loss and then spend almost 100K to either get what I currently have or to upgrade to what I have.

---

I got over having new long ago. New is not all it is cracked up to be.

Plus, the initial depreciation is a hell of a hit.

Tom


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Tom Pelz [OVS]
Public Guest


Reged: 11/27/04
Posts: 18
Loc: Wisconsin
Re: Bonanza Price REDUCED 14% [Re: Sean Franklin]
      #191460 - 04/04/08 05:10 PM

I fly a 1959 K35 Bonanza with over 6000 hours on the airframe.

Two years ago, I wanted a newer Explorer. I found one in Denver, Colorado with 100K on the odometer. No rust on the body.

It did need some repairs. After the repairs, the total cost was still less than 1/2 of a newer used Explorer and about a third the cost of a new Explorer.

The point, It allowed me to have money left over to put into my Bonanza. More importantly, the Bonanza's net worth, after the new parts (430W, digital autopilot with GPSS, etc and the iinstallation of an IO550) has increased!
---

My point again is: I would rather buy a 1974 A36, an IO550 with TAT turbo, a new instrument panel update with many digital parts, a new paint job, tip tanks and then install a new interior,and I would have less than 340 K invested in the airplane.

The airplane I just described would look and feel new. It would be in great working condition because I would have helped do a lot of the work.

This is literallly what I have done with my K35, The process has taken me many years to accomplish.

I find the I appreciate my airplane more having spent many hours working on it (with appropriate supervision), than I would if I just bought it.

Tom


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