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Joe Budge (W29)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 7423
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132091 - 11/02/06 07:39 AM

Quote:

On the other hand, you could come into the pattern clean, set about 2800lbs on each engine. When it slowed to 210, drop flaps 1. It would slow more and at 190 go flaps 5. Approaching the glideslope, drop the gear at 1 dot and go flaps 15. Intercept the glideslope and go flaps 30 and NEVER touch the thrust levers.




I was in coach for one of those rides. We came across Denver fairly high - you could see the airport way down there. In this instance the pilot brought the center engine to idle, leaving the other two humming along. Hearing one engine winding down got my attention. The rest of the approach was as you describe with flaps, slats, and gear falling out at appropriate times. No throttles - it was awesome. Third engine came back on-line for short final.

Regards,
Joe


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #132106 - 11/02/06 09:09 AM

Quote:

J - re>>told me a few months ago Diamond Jack was not doing well<<

Now THAT one has to be one of the more classical pieces of understatement that I've ever seen!

best, randy




Is Jack not still with us??? I have not seen such if he has departed.


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #132111 - 11/02/06 09:40 AM

Quote:

John -- I marvelled many times at that wing coming apart on approach from my
august spot sitting in coach.

Isn't it just magnificent when you're one with the airplane, and all the right stuff happens (speeds, configurations, touchdown) almost magically
without much conscious thought? It makes my day (or night), every time it all comes together.




Many guys never did a flaps 40 landing because they claimed the Seven-Two would fall out of the sky. Not so but it was a different machine. With 40, it used practically no runway. Standard was flaps 30 but now most operators have blocked off 30 and 40 and use 25 for landing due to noise. I almost always used 40 going into LGA and DCA.

And yes, magnificent. I have on more than a few occasions patted the airplane before getting out of the cockpit and muttered, "Thanks.. I enjoyed that."

Also on a few occasions, I have had to apologize. <G> Like someone said, "Some days you just can't do anything wrong and other days you couldn't find your ass with a triple GPS and 6 check airmen."


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Joe Budge (W29)]
      #132112 - 11/02/06 09:50 AM

Quote:

I was in coach for one of those rides. We came across Denver fairly high - you could see the airport way down there. In this instance the pilot brought the center engine to idle, leaving the other two humming along. Hearing one engine winding down got my attention. The rest of the approach was as you describe with flaps, slats, and gear falling out at appropriate times. No throttles - it was awesome. Third engine came back on-line for short final.

Regards,
Joe




That was a fairly common technique because you normally bled number 1 and 3 for the the air conditioning packs and pressurization. It was also fairly common as the Seven Two aged that it became a bit more leaky and sometimes you had to leave one engine up just to keep the cabin from climbing during the descent.

Randy flew the last ones.. the ones with the BIG engines. I flew the 727 which the wimpy -7 engines, the satisfactory -9s and the nice performing -15 enignes as well as intermixes of 7s/9s. Later I got to fly a couple of re-engined 727s where they hung the 200 series JT8D from the MD-80 on the pods. It was essentially adding a 4th engine to the airplane due to the increased thrust.

Many are not aware that there was a proposal by Boeing to do this (re-engine the 727 with JT8D-200 engines). It was the 727-300 proposed to United. It never got off paper and Boeing admitted that getting the #2 engine to breathe properly was a problem. The next proposal to United was a twin engine narrow body which languished for a long time before it caught on.. the 757, another fine flying machine. But the 757 could NEVER slow down like the Mighty Tri-Motor.


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132116 - 11/02/06 10:03 AM

John -- <<I enjoyed that>>

Amen.

My kids laugh at me. After a flight, after tieing the beast down and
gathering our stuff, I walk about 75 feet toward the FBO but then turn around
to look at the remarkable conveyance one more time, half-way disbelieving
that we had just been 3 miles above the earth and travelling hundreds and
hundreds of miles at several hundred miles an hour (love the tailwinds).
It's still a thrill, and they've taken to counting down to my turn-around and
looking with me.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132119 - 11/02/06 10:34 AM

Hi John. You are correct.

The B757 was a nice glider compared to the 727. However, we never used full flaps on our NWA 727's.

I almost always used speed brakes at various points in the decent and approach with the 757. -and made one go around because we could not get it slowed down from a slam dunk visual to DTW. It would have been a piece of cake with a 727!

As to this fatigue experement, I bet that NASA and others have vast books about the subject of aviation fatigue. Probably also the USAF -not so sure my good ole navy gave it much thought however.

At NWA we almost refused to fly a couple versions of B747-200 because of terrible crew rest facilities. Company improved them a little but the basic design was poor at best. I think we got them from Saudia or some rich desert country.

I think some airlines block off a first class seat for off duty pilots, which is not really a very good resting place.

OK, back again for my "NASA nap". Then start our drive to Tucson tomorrow leaving cold Minneapolis to Randy.

regards,

Dux


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Chad Kintz
Public Guest


Reged: 08/07/04
Posts: 22
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #132121 - 11/02/06 10:43 AM

Quote:

I think some airlines block off a first class seat for off duty pilots, which is not really a very good resting place.




Yup, when I worked (not flew) for UAL back in mid-2001, the 777s used an F seat for augmented crews. I think they've since retrofitted them with lower-lobe rest facilities, but not sure.

--------------------
Dangerously overeducated.


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Scott Voigt retired controller
Top Gun


Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 1541
Loc: Trophy Club, Texas
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132126 - 11/02/06 11:19 AM

I learned what you are talking about flying the sim at AA. I was amazed at just how well it flew by the numbers when making approaches. I also tried some of the fly out of the sky stuff <G>... Lots of fun.

I was able to see one from the jumpseat one wonderful day going into Denver <G>. We were motoring along level with a PD decent. It was a very hazy day and you couldn't see much forward. Capt. was doing the briefing and talking about the next leg... I happened to look down and ask gee, is that Buckley down there???? <BG> Capt. looks down and says yup, CRAP! Watched power come off and start down. A few minutes later, get DEN in sight and approach clears us for a visual, but also asks if we are going to make it down in time <G>... Capt. says yes and turns to F/O and says, yeah you are gonna make it right???? F/O slows it up a bit and does the wing disappearing act <G>.... Capt. turns to me and says, ahhhh you didn't see the flaps and spoilers actually do that <G>... We made it... It was a fun trip...

--------------------
Scott H. Voigt
retired controller
Patrol Division
Trophy Club, Police Dept.


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Scott Voigt retired controller
Top Gun


Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 1541
Loc: Trophy Club, Texas
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #132127 - 11/02/06 11:24 AM

Dux;

I guess that the Navy did care about fatigue... At CFS this year we had one speaker who was a Navy Doc and now a civil one that did a LOT of sleep and fatigue studies in the military as well as using exotic chemicals for helping enhance flight crews that the FAA would frown upon <G>. He had a GREAT presentation...

regards

--------------------
Scott H. Voigt
retired controller
Patrol Division
Trophy Club, Police Dept.


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Scott Voigt retired controller]
      #132152 - 11/02/06 01:52 PM

Quote:

get DEN in sight and approach clears us for a visual, but also asks if we are going to make it down in time <G>... Capt. says yes and turns to F/O and says, yeah you are gonna make it right????




Right in the middle of a runway change at SLC I asked a HughesAir DC-9 if he could make it straight-in to 34L. (He thought he was 60 miles from 16R, I knew he was 35 miles from 34L <G>).

He replied: "Affirmative! But there is serious doubt that we will be able to bring the airplane with us."

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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