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AVSIG Discussion Sections >> Training & Proficiency

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
ATP requirements may be reduced
      #444730 - 11/10/17 03:22 PM

"This plan would reduce the flight time hour requirement for military pilots from 750 hours to 500; for pilots with a bachelor's degree from 1,000 hours to 750; and for pilots with an associate's degree from 1,250 hours to 1,000. The Air Line Pilots Association, which has resisted efforts to create alternative pathways to help pilots meet the 1,500-hour requirement, endorsed the recommendation."

http://www.aviationnews.net/index.cfm?do=headline&news_ID=269199


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #444733 - 11/10/17 06:04 PM

Quote:

, endorsed the recommendation."




Chuckle, quidado! Spent a l-o-n-g time training airline pilots, seen it BOTH ways! One I particularly remember had an "equvilent" high school graduation certificate, one of the absolute best pilots that I've ever encountered. Another one had a veritable plethora of degrees aft of his name and we ended up firing him! OTOH, one other impressed us enough to later take him into the flight training dept. as a instructor. So - it works both ways - you can only accrue EXPERIENCE in one way (and it's not from a book).

best, randy


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #444736 - 11/10/17 07:40 PM

Quote:

- you can only accrue EXPERIENCE in one way (and it's not from a book).

best, randy




Randy,

I think back on my time in SE Asia and other than leaving with 1,500 hours total flight time, I'm just not sure if that made me a better pilot?

What I thought did make me a better pilot was the three years I spent as an Instrument IP after returning to the World.

Bill


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #444751 - 11/10/17 10:31 PM

Quote:

years I spent as an Instrument IP




Yup, prolly nuth'n like thinking up four or five different ways to say the same thing to someone about how to make something work out right.

Or, (come to think of it) recovering from some of the situations the student put you in <g>.

best, randy


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nehoC hctiM
Top Gun


Reged: 08/03/04
Posts: 2293
Loc: LAX Based 10/2016 - Current YA...
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #444764 - 11/11/17 11:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

, endorsed the recommendation."




Chuckle, quidado! Spent a l-o-n-g time training airline pilots, seen it BOTH ways! One I particularly remember had an "equvilent" high school graduation certificate, one of the absolute best pilots that I've ever encountered. Another one had a veritable plethora of degrees aft of his name and we ended up firing him! OTOH, one other impressed us enough to later take him into the flight training dept. as a instructor. So - it works both ways - you can only accrue EXPERIENCE in one way (and it's not from a book).

best, randy





Exactly.
Total time, and or degrees does not necessarily mean a quality candidate.

When asked how to improve online pilots, sim testing of visual approaches and true crosswind landing and takeoff techniques would tell me about 99% of what I need to know about flying skill.

Rod machado says, a Monkey can fly an ILS Approach.

--------------------
USA Today said, people over 50 are calmer.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #444768 - 11/11/17 02:51 PM

Quote:

visual approaches and true crosswind landing and takeoff techniques would tell me about 99% of what I need to know




Concur on that and the 99%!

best, randy


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #444770 - 11/11/17 04:36 PM

What Randy said. Any CFI with a bit of experience can usually tell how the
flight will go by the time they reach the hold short line. After that, the
specifics will vary, but the quality is already known.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #444773 - 11/11/17 06:35 PM

Quote:

will go by the time they reach the hold short line




Ya know Ray, guess that I've never verbalized it before but think the same as you, many times have felt/said "hey man, just lemm'e watch while he taxi's it out and I'll pretty much be able to tell you how it'll go".

best, randy


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #444775 - 11/11/17 07:32 PM

Not just taxi, but preflight, engine start, and runup (if required) as well.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #444777 - 11/11/17 07:56 PM

Quote:

Not just taxi, but preflight, engine start, and runup (if required) as well.




Yup, that's what I'd said/meant, done all those things by the time he'd taxiied it out to the hold short line.

best, randy


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Bob Dubner
Super Imperial Member


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 4759
Loc: Extreme Upper West Side
ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #444783 - 11/11/17 11:21 PM

Funny you should mention the "...only way to accrue EXPERIENCE."

My sister, who's living with our aging parents, texted me today, asking if it
was okay if she loaded up Adobe Flash player onto my mother's Mac.

I told her that Apple doesn't much like Adobe, and so enabling Flash can be a
bit of a hassle, but if she had a good reason, she should go ahead.

And I asked why she wanted to do that.

Turns out she wants to renew her CPR certification, and she can do it online,
but the online process needs Flash.

I spent the rest of the day occasionally mulling over just how happy I'd be,
if I ever needed CPR, if the person delivering it had been certified by a
computer program. Oh, well. I suppose I wouldn't actually refuse it. But,
still.

On the other hand, my sister reminded me that no matter how many times she's
done CPR on the practice dummy, it never started breathing on its own.


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Tom Charlton
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 2221
Loc: The west coast of Florida
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Bob Dubner]
      #444784 - 11/12/17 06:08 AM

Quote:

CPR on the practice dummy, it never started breathing on its own.


Hi Bob,
Hmm . . . CPR practice dummy v full monty aircraft simulator.
Been my experience the sim could get the heart to beatín quicker. Also gitícha ta perspiratín profusely<grin>.

My impression is training and safety concepts from the world of aviatín has perhaps spilled over into the world of medicine.
* Simulation.
* Checklist.

Regards,
Tom Charlton

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupťry, 1939.


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Bob Dubner]
      #444785 - 11/12/17 09:08 AM

Decades ago, I was a Red Cross CPR instructor. The dummies at that time were
the ResusciAnnes, which could be disassembled and folded into a carrying case.

One unit was the Heimlich maneuver, shown on film first, then students
practiced the position on each other. They were cautioned not to do the
"pop" on someone who did not need it, due to the risks of doing other damage.

Once, a student was really interested in knowing how hard to do the maneuver,
and asked if I would demonstrate on the dummy. I gave "her" a hearty pop and
the head fell off and rolled to the back of the room.

That pretty much ended that evening's session. It's hard to do CPR while
laughing.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #444786 - 11/12/17 09:41 AM

I don't see what a degree has to do with anything.

I can see that reduction for military, due to the intensive training.

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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nehoC hctiM
Top Gun


Reged: 08/03/04
Posts: 2293
Loc: LAX Based 10/2016 - Current YA...
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #444788 - 11/12/17 10:28 AM

Quote:

I don't see what a degree has to do with anything.

I can see that reduction for military, due to the intensive training.




Makes Riddle and the like happy.
Eases recruitment by reducing costs of becoming an airline pilot or atp based on degree at certain universities.

See my earlier thoughts on degree/hrs/not always the sign of a good pilot.

--------------------
USA Today said, people over 50 are calmer.


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Ward Miller POU-NY
Top Gun


Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 10508
Loc: New York
ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Bob Dubner]
      #444789 - 11/12/17 11:21 AM

>> On the other hand, my sister reminded me that no matter how many times
she's done CPR on the practice dummy, it never started breathing on its own.
<<

Bob, let me tell ya, there is nothing like the thrill of giving CPR and
seeing the patient begin to breath on his own. The vast majority of the
times, we were unsuccessful. <sigh>


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #444791 - 11/12/17 11:45 AM

Just an indicator of a level of accomplishment. Believe it or not, it does teach one how to learn and develops basic learning skills. Still need to demonstrate flying ability. Always exceptions.

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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #444793 - 11/12/17 12:48 PM

Yes, it's more screening than training. A degree means somebody has tried to impart an organized body of knowledge to you, and they succeeded.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #444798 - 11/12/17 02:26 PM

Quote:

Yes, it's more screening than training. A degree means somebody has tried to impart an organized body of knowledge to you, and they succeeded.




I'll go way out on a limb here and add it actually builds neural network connections in the brain that facilitates learning in those areas.

I went back to school after service and found myself gaining reading, analysis and communications abilities I simply didn't have when younger.


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #444821 - 11/13/17 01:43 PM

Quote:

The vast majority of the times, we were unsuccessful. <sigh>




The last time I had training, the mantra was, the person is dead. You might be able to bring them back.

But if not, you are NOT unsuccessful, as they were already dead.

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Bob Dubner]
      #444822 - 11/13/17 02:57 PM

Quote:

I spent the rest of the day occasionally mulling over just how happy I'd be, if I ever needed CPR, if the person delivering it had been certified by a computer program. Oh, well. I suppose I wouldn't actually refuse it. But, still.




I'm pretty sure it's something to keep the bureaucrats happy. You didn't describe why your sister needed the certificate. It's probably something where someone deemed it a "good idea" if a number of people in a location/occupation had some knowledge of CPR besides what's shown on TV. The certificate indicates that said person has some knowledge beyond what Hollywood shows.

A practice dummy would be better, but a well-done computer questionnaire would be better than nothing. In this case, it's a renewal, so it may be to go over some knowledge items (when, how fast, what else needs to be done, etc.)


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Ward Miller POU-NY
Top Gun


Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 10508
Loc: New York
ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #444824 - 11/13/17 05:24 PM

Terry, we usually have about a 4-minute window. Get them breathing and the
heart working in that time and the outcome is likely going to be favorable.
Much longer than that and the damage to the brain is often beyond reversing.


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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #444853 - 11/14/17 10:30 PM

This was a big discussion item during the ALPA Air Safety Forum this summer in DCA. At that time, National ALPA wanted to keep the much higher (than ICAO/etc.) standards. Some of the panel also presented some potential future problems for the USA airlines if we did not come closser to ICAO recommendations.

Others noted that it was not just a safety concern -and could be modified for a reasonable approach to new pilot hiring.

Even now, the USA standards are MUCH higher than the rest of the international aviation commercial pilot hiring and flying.

OK, did United and other airlines hire 300 hour pilots in 1965 era? Even paid for some of their training?

Like Randy, I could soon know if a pilot was a "good" pilot, whether military or otherwise. Not all (but MOST) were very good pilots.

Regards,

Dux -OK, I did not tell the truth about the cold sleet and weather in Tucson. Thinking back to the Northwest crew parking lot in 1996- where after a 11 day trip you could not find your snow covered car with a dead battery.

Nope, sunny and perhaps a record warm day today in Tucson.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #444867 - 11/15/17 03:32 PM

Quote:

OK, did United and other airlines hire 300 hour pilots in 1965 era?.




Yup, wish now that I'da kept a few of those ads that I saw.

Come t think of it, that made me recall something else, a MUCH earlier era in Untidy's history - the "Tracy Aces".

best, randy

Edited by Randy Sohn (11/15/17 03:35 PM)


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #444887 - 11/15/17 10:12 PM

I think they advertised that they would hire Private Pilots and train them. Rumor has it they only did that with one PP. I wish I could check that.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #444905 - 11/16/17 12:08 PM

Quote:

Rumor has it they only did that with one PP.




Chuckle, <nsl>

best, randy


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #444983 - 11/19/17 12:37 AM

>> 300 hour PP...

One of my Filipino-ancestry friends got hired by UAL around 1978 with 500 hours of mostly C150 time, an IR, and a wet MEL ticket. They were under a minority hiring push (with evidently some reason, having virtually zero of anything other than white male pilots...) and heís flying B777s now. The boy done good after some sidesaddle time, a couple of furloughs, and losing most of his pension money in there somewhere. It worked out.


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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: ATP requirements may be reduced [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #445090 - 11/21/17 11:59 AM

Thanks Scott -yes that is a good example. The loss of pilot pensions came from some chapter 11 stuff -varied by airline. The UAL pilots spent a big portion of their pension funds in a stupid employee buyout attempt. Thus in chapter 11, the judge agreed that their pension was bust.

Delta pilots seeing a possible chapte 11 coming, -many taking early retirement and using the lump sum option that was offered. The fund got drained and, yes, chapter 11 judge agreed with the company that the pension must be terminated.(now badly underfunded.)

Northwest pilot group also had a well funded pension fund. Limited lump sum options and when in chapter 11, the judge allowed the pensions to continue (since it was indeed well funded by industry standards). The pensions of working pilots was frozrn at existing rates.

You are correct in your analysis of commercial pilots in the 60's and 70's. White male -many with military experience. Not the case so much today -various age groups (yes some retired military and 44 years old), many more women, -but still hard to find black qualified pilots I think.

Regards,

Dux from Tucson -but holiday season in Minnesota, DCA, and Charlottesville, VA.


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