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AVSIG Discussion Sections >> Training & Proficiency

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nehoC hctiM
Top Gun


Reged: 08/03/04
Posts: 2293
Loc: LAX Based 10/2016 - Current YA...
Have you ever known "This Guy?"
      #441993 - 08/26/17 11:30 AM

"Flying from Pvd to ORD yesterday, actually deadheading in Uniform, the military type guy sitting next to me asked me about flying.
I asked him if he had ever flown?
He told me that his dad owns a small plane on his farm in SD.
Soldier also told me his dad use to take him up a lot.
Then he told me that he has soloed many times.

I asked if he ever had any flight instructors teach him, or a student pilots license? As he smiled and told me no, reminded me of a good place to start a thread on Avsig.

Also reminded me of a VFR pilot that came to me once for a proficiency check.
This guy told me that he was in the regular business of flying into the coulds in So Calif, and penetrating solid overcast layers till getting on top, then proceeding VFR after.
Hitches were, no IFR rating and no IFR flight plan.

--------------------
USA Today said, people over 50 are calmer.


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #441999 - 08/26/17 04:36 PM

Mitch -- What sort of proficiency check did he come to you for?

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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nehoC hctiM
Top Gun


Reged: 08/03/04
Posts: 2293
Loc: LAX Based 10/2016 - Current YA...
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #442022 - 08/27/17 11:26 AM

At the time he showed up for a mission orientation ride which was the same as a Bfr or Ipc but also was focused on forms, procedures and the like for my charity flying group.
This flight was scrapped as a requirement for this group very close to the start of 2000, against recommendations of myself and several other that were finding approximately 1/4 of the pilots showing up need serious remedial training.
50% obtained extra training then came back to pass with flying colors.
The other 50% probably figured it wasn't worth their trouble.
Can't remember if that pilot in question returned or not.
In my twenty years of charity flying I'm proud to say that 100% of the hundreds I flew with and passed. were accident free.

As to the original question, have you ever bumped into anyone that admitted or even bragged at breaking the FARs or rules?

--------------------
USA Today said, people over 50 are calmer.


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #442023 - 08/27/17 11:54 AM

Quote:

have you ever bumped into anyone that admitted or even bragged at breaking the FARs or rules?



The guy who took a sailplane under the Rio Grande Gorge Bridge outside Taos was pretty open about it...

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 1862
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #442024 - 08/27/17 12:08 PM

Well, I've spoken with and spend time with the guy who talked about and even posted this video of flying under the Tappan Zee Bridge.

Under TZ Bridge

Andy


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #442025 - 08/27/17 12:33 PM

The list of "bridge jobs" goes on and on...the St. Louis Arch was done by a Commander twin with the numbers taped over, and the Mackinac Straits Bridge was done by a B-47.

The former got away with it; the latter was busted.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Tom Charlton
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 2221
Loc: The west coast of Florida
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #442026 - 08/27/17 01:19 PM

Quote:

As he smiled and told me no, reminded me of a good place to start a thread on Avsig


Hi Mitch,

I’ve kind’a lost track of the number now but . . . during a lifetime in aviation, sadly I’ve successfully predicted a bad outcome for more than a few. Ya meet them, sort’a get to know them, and come away think’n . . . hmm, don’t know when or where but . . . Then at some later date I’d get word of their demise.

I think perhaps a common thread was a projected mentality of invulnerability.

Regards,
Tom Charlton (who has certainly done his share of stupid stuff)

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #442031 - 08/27/17 02:19 PM

Quote:

At the time he showed up for a mission orientation ride which was the same as a Bfr or Ipc but also was focused on forms, procedures and the like for my charity flying group.
This flight was scrapped as a requirement for this group very close to the start of 2000, against recommendations of myself and several other that were finding approximately 1/4 of the pilots showing up need serious remedial training.
50% obtained extra training then came back to pass with flying colors.
The other 50% probably figured it wasn't worth their trouble.
Can't remember if that pilot in question returned or not.
In my twenty years of charity flying I'm proud to say that 100% of the hundreds I flew with and passed. were accident free.

As to the original question, have you ever bumped into anyone that admitted or even bragged at breaking the FARs or rules?




Mitch -- Not that I can recall.

I was asking about the type of proficiency check, to gain more insight for my next question to you: what did you do?

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #442032 - 08/27/17 03:33 PM

Quote:

The list of "bridge jobs" goes on and on....




Let's not forget Pilot Officer Catermole.

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #442034 - 08/27/17 05:06 PM

Well no, really don't have much experience with single engine VFR pilots. Mostly military or commercial airline pilots.

Does not mean that some of those were not stupid pilots somewtimes -including Dux.

Regards,

Dux -from cool and rain showers Minneapolis


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #442036 - 08/27/17 05:25 PM

Quote:

Let's not forget Pilot Officer Catermole.



Ah yes...Ray Middleton worked on that show, and he told me the "Cattermole" Spit lost a pitot mast in the bridge shot.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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nehoC hctiM
Top Gun


Reged: 08/03/04
Posts: 2293
Loc: LAX Based 10/2016 - Current YA...
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #442042 - 08/27/17 07:06 PM

Typically, for VFR pilots, a small cross country flight with a couple of small maneuver requests along the way.
Typically there was a two leg cross country, kinda akin to what airlines do now called a Loft.
For IFR, same but typically either in actual or under the hood, with questions about holds, approaches etc plus actually flying two approaches.
Course for both, checking out their pre flight planning.
Now days, ForeFlight has made GA flying very interesting.
I've only had a few experiences with it, and with that in mind wouldn't want to actively instruct or check unless I had a bit more of it under my belt.
My CFI certificate is still active.
Renewal is via Duties and Responsibilities.
As a Captain, we are charged with review of probie FO's.
That is the qualifier.
Hoping I have answered your question.

Ps just remembered, I used the AOPA BFR form as a basis for a new written checklist for evaluations. Reviewing and having the pilot sign it, was beneficial in my mind.

--------------------
USA Today said, people over 50 are calmer.


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #442044 - 08/27/17 09:40 PM

Mitch -- Sorry for my confusing inquiry. When this guy wanted a check out as an AF pilot, and admitted to busting weather, how did you handle the checkout.

Yes, there are FAA checklists in an AC that are handy, too, for FRs.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #442047 - 08/27/17 11:55 PM

Quote:

...Ray Middleton




I sure hold Ray in the highest regard!

best, randy


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #442051 - 08/28/17 07:52 AM

Ray's picture could go in a dictionary entry for "Workmanship"...

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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nehoC hctiM
Top Gun


Reged: 08/03/04
Posts: 2293
Loc: LAX Based 10/2016 - Current YA...
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #442057 - 08/28/17 04:23 PM

Quote:

Mitch -- Sorry for my confusing inquiry. When this guy wanted a check out as an AF pilot, and admitted to busting weather, how did you handle the checkout.

Yes, there are FAA checklists in an AC that are handy, too, for FRs.




They say memory is the first thing to go???

I remember having an in depth discussion about this topic, as it really lit my fuse.
Items including, "What happens when you break out of an overcast and there is traffic on top?
What do you do with your transponder?
Do you realize what you are doing is highly unintelligent AND dangerous?"
Wish I could remember more of the specific guy so I could look him up, but unfortunately I can't remember him other than meeting him at CCB and doing a short round trip to SMO including maneuvers.

Turning the table 360 degrees around, (Mayor Rizzo reference) how would YOU have handled such an individual?


On the original springboard, I had heard some stories over the years about guys with no FAA pilots license flying planes solo, and the FAA unable to do anything like take their licenses away, since they never had one (even student pilot) to begin with.

--------------------
USA Today said, people over 50 are calmer.


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Stephanie Belser
Top Gun APC


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 5929
Loc: KFAM
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #442058 - 08/28/17 04:31 PM

Quote:

As to the original question, have you ever bumped into anyone that admitted or even bragged at breaking the FARs or rules?




Yes. It was during a job interview. The company owner interviewing me bragged about flying in the clouds at a VFR altitude when he was sure it would clear before he reached his destination.

I needed the job. But I figured that a clown who was so cavalier about such things was probably equally cavalier about worker safety and paying people. I didn't take the job.

--------------------
What the hell is an "aluminum falcon"?


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #442059 - 08/28/17 05:38 PM

Quote:

I had heard some stories over the years about guys with no FAA pilots license flying planes solo, and the FAA unable to do anything like take their licenses away, since they never had one (even student pilot) to begin with.




There is a process for those cases, called referral to DOJ for criminal prosecution.

Bill (not a former FAA attorney, but I sleep with one regularly)

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: Stephanie Belser]
      #442060 - 08/28/17 06:25 PM

>>> I didn't take the job.

Good move. The place where I got my CFI had an owner who cut a lot of
corners. He and a buddy of his used to preach in favor of busting minimums
on nonprecision approaches. They said it was safe to descend halfway between
MDA and field elevation.

The buddy died crashing into the reason for a stepdown fix. The wreckage was
found at exactly that elevation. Apparently, on his third try at the
approach, he lost awareness of distance to the airport. He was well within
fuel range of three ILS-equipped airports, all at lower elevations than his
destination airport. The school owner never mentioned that stunt again, but
continued to run his fleet like Happy Harry's Used Airplane Lot.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #442061 - 08/28/17 06:37 PM

Quote:

I had heard some stories over the years about guys with no FAA pilots license flying planes solo, and the FAA unable to do anything like take their licenses away, since they never had one (even student pilot) to begin with.



IANAL, but as I understand it, it works like this: a regulatory agency like the FAA has jurisdiction only over people it has issued a license to, so flying without a license is not a violation of FAR's. However the Federal Aviation Act which creates the FAA does make it illegal.

So you don't get prosecuted by the FAA: you get prosecuted by the Justice Dept, with the FAA acting as expert witness.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #442067 - 08/28/17 08:46 PM

Quote:

They say memory is the first thing to go???

I remember having an in depth discussion about this topic, as it really lit my fuse.
Items including, "What happens when you break out of an overcast and there is traffic on top?
What do you do with your transponder?
Do you realize what you are doing is highly unintelligent AND dangerous?"
Wish I could remember more of the specific guy so I could look him up, but unfortunately I can't remember him other than meeting him at CCB and doing a short round trip to SMO including maneuvers.

Turning the table 360 degrees around, (Mayor Rizzo reference) how would YOU have handled such an individual?


On the original springboard, I had heard some stories over the years about guys with no FAA pilots license flying planes solo, and the FAA unable to do anything like take their licenses away, since they never had one (even student pilot) to begin with.




Hi Mitch -- I can't say with certainty how I'd handle it, but I"d have had to think long and hard about signing him off to fly patients for any organization of which I'm a part. Without good judgment and a compliant attitude I really won't care about stellar stick ability. Maybe I'd have been ok with it, provided that he was unabashedly ashamed and utterly eschewed such behavior in the future (assuming also that it only had happened in years passed and wasn't either current or in the recent past). But it doesn't sound like that's where his head was when he came to you.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #442070 - 08/28/17 09:18 PM

Quote:

Without good judgment




Scott, you made me here think back to doing many checkrides on NOR, IIRC one of (prolly the predominant one) items we had to assess/grade on the 61.58 or type rating was "judgement". That last one was either an S or a U.

best, randy


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #442081 - 08/29/17 08:29 AM

Randy -- Judgment is back at or near the top of the proverbial list with the change from the PTS to Airman Certification Standards (ACS). It's a challenge to assess it in a short check format, and delve down into how the pilot actually does things (and not how they say they do or would do things).

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #442082 - 08/29/17 09:22 AM

Quote:

challenge to assess it in a short check format




"Now ain't THAT the cotton-pickin' truth!"

best, randy (ex-NDPER)


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #442090 - 08/30/17 01:32 AM

I may have told this before.
( Now, this ain't no sh*t )
Proper Intro.

a guy I knew with a Tri Pacer on the field where I instructed (Sussex, NJ) said he was going to Boston that evening. I had a girlfriend there and asked to go along. I climb in and off we go. I doze off. I wake up to see solid undercast for as far as I can see, and he says we are almost there. I asked how we were going to get down, and he just noses us over to go into the clouds...before we got into them I eased us back up, and asked how he knew where we were. He didn't.. I found a couple of moldy sectionals, and ( this was a while back) called Flight Service for a DF steer. Then got a clearance to descend through the layer. Plenty of ceiling, but he was just going to push it over and hope for the best. Not arrogant, just a little ignorant.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #442102 - 08/30/17 02:34 PM

Hi Jeff

Well, Darwin often rules in these situations -sigh. Good story and you perhaps kept Darwin away that night.

Regards,

Dux -and I think this may no longer be true -but decades ago in Europe, all night flying was considered IMC? thus I would assume qualified and trained?


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #442121 - 08/30/17 07:44 PM

Sussex...New Jersey

But, I was...Darwin was not.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Paul Millner [OAK]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 675
Loc: Oakland CA
Re: Have you ever known "This Guy?" [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #444984 - 11/19/17 07:18 AM

Quote:

As to the original question, have you ever bumped into anyone that admitted or even bragged at breaking the FARs or rules?




Pretty much sums up my entire 4.5 years of hangar flying in Beaumont TX. Got a particular thrill out of the guys doing their own prop overhauls, including corrective blade bending. “Well, it’s a twin so I got a spare!”

Lot of good that will do when that blade hits you in the head...

Paul


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