AVSIG: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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AVSIG Discussion Sections >> Training & Proficiency

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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #432904 - 11/20/16 09:17 PM

I've been doing it that way for over 40 years. Although I never considered it from a loss of control matter, I'm glad to see this move.

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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #432906 - 11/20/16 09:24 PM

On the circular approach, the pilot is continually evaluating the progress of his turn and correcting the bank angle as necessary. That gives him the advantage of being able to more easily keep a correct airspeed for the approach.

If that aircraft on final is so close that he's a danger for the 15 seconds that the aircraft is not pointed toward the final, then either type of approach is going to end up in a midair.


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #432907 - 11/20/16 09:28 PM

Ward, I don't understand how the statement, "We should see which approach is safer" is biased to either type. Isn't that how all scientific research starts out?

I think a study of stall/spin accidents in the base to final turn vs misfits on short final would be a good place to start.


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Ward Miller POU-NY
Top Gun


Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 10508
Loc: New York
Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #432910 - 11/20/16 10:17 PM

>> On the circular approach, the pilot is continually evaluating the
progress of his turn and correcting the bank angle as necessary. <<

Equals increased work load. . . . at a critical time.


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #432912 - 11/20/16 11:17 PM

Quote:

On the circular approach, the pilot is continually evaluating the progress of his turn and correcting the bank angle as necessary. That gives him the advantage of being able to more easily keep a correct airspeed for the approach.

If that aircraft on final is so close that he's a danger for the 15 seconds that the aircraft is not pointed toward the final, then either type of approach is going to end up in a midair.




Bruce -- Except that in many training aircraft, and those flown by PPs, you can't even see the runway until 75% or more through the constant turn to final. And they're in aircraft more affected by wind due to lower speeds than what the military flies, needing more opportunity for correction.


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #432914 - 11/21/16 10:02 AM

Quote:

Terry -- While the military does it this way, that's a very different pool of student pilots than what we have on the civil side, with somewhat different goals (e.g., ease of instruction and execution matters on the civil side perhaps more than in military aviation).




I do not think the turning final is any harder to learn/teach than the squared off one.

In fact, in many ways I think it is easier, as you can see if you are short or long well before it becomes obvious with a squared off pattern.

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #432915 - 11/21/16 10:05 AM

I do disagree with the comment that it avoids the overshoot.

I discussed a VERY screwed up turning approach into Nairobi on Kenya Air a few years ago. One that they overshot badly, then tried to recover. And that I truly believed we were going to crash.

Although, in that case, I knew we were going to overshoot as we started the turn. But the people up front did not seem to recognize this fact.

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #432916 - 11/21/16 10:06 AM

Quote:

I think a study of stall/spin accidents in the base to final turn vs misfits on short final would be a good place to start.




I think eliminating the traditional final turn and the issues with that is the big plus in the turning approach.

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #432917 - 11/21/16 10:07 AM

Quote:

>> On the circular approach, the pilot is continually evaluating the
progress of his turn and correcting the bank angle as necessary. <<

Equals increased work load. . . . at a critical time.




I disagree. This is something that happens as you look at your touchdown point as you turn. Just like you evaluate your glide path on final with a traditional approach.

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Circular Approach v Traditional Pattern [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #432918 - 11/21/16 10:08 AM

Quote:

Bruce -- Except that in many training aircraft, and those flown by PPs, you can't even see the runway until 75% or more through the constant turn to final. And they're in aircraft more affected by wind due to lower speeds than what the military flies, needing more opportunity for correction.




It has been a while since I have flown a final turn in a high winged aircraft. But what I recall is, you lean forward and look around the leading edge of the wing.

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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