AVSIG: New (to me) Wake Issue wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
New (to me) Wake Issue
      #386069 - 02/09/14 09:30 AM

I had some time yesterday afternoon to extract the 210 from the ice, pry the wing covers off and do a quick 17 min. night currency run.

On the last landing, an E190 was ahead of me for the runway, I turned a 1/2 mile base from downwind when he was abeam. I stayed high, intending to land beyond the jet's touchdown point (which was about 1,000-1,200' feet from the threshold). The jet turned off prior to reaching the end (C/D for those familiar with HPN) so it couldn't have landed long.

I crossed the threshold at about 150-200' AGL, slowed nicely, looking to touch about 2,000' ahead. At the threshold, I got a strong rolling moment to the right, correctable with a good dose of rudder and some aileron, and nose-down input to keep flying speed. It lasted about 5 seconds, I guess. From then on down to the runway, all was normal.

Winds were light, 270/3 for runway 34, not a burble in the pattern, and the arrival prior to the E190 was a CRJ 5 mins before I was over the threshold. Not sure where the CRJ landed but I doubt it was as high as I was over the threshold.

I'd thought I had the wake thing knocked. But I didn't and that was surprising. Wakes are usually described as either hugging the ground with a light crosswind, or descending. This one climbed?


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James Peters (BAK)
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #386082 - 02/09/14 12:57 PM

Scott, while I was still living in Scottsdale, AZ, I attended a refresher course prior to refreshing my single engine land pilot's license...and a film was shown that dealt with Wake Turbulence...the film stated that wake turbulence persisted for at least 15 minutes.. sometimes longer.

Later while on a commercial flight, I have experienced a bump in clear air at altitude.. and I attributed it to a previous aircraft ahead.

The film showed a DC-10 landing with smoke generators showing the wake turbulence. Very interesting and informative.

The film stated that the roll recovery of a DC-9 was 13 degrees/second while a 747 generated a roll of some 45 degrees/second...that is one reason for a 5 mile separation on landing, for a DC-9 if landing behind a 747.

Jim

Edited by James Peters (BAK) (02/09/14 01:02 PM)


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Ralph Jones
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #386089 - 02/09/14 02:57 PM

What was the sky cover like? If it was a day with snow on the ground, the sun out and the runway clear, I'd think about thermal lift coming off the runway.

--------------------
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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #386092 - 02/09/14 04:19 PM

Ralph - CAFB, night. Essentially calm.

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B. Butler (Oregonian)
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #386093 - 02/09/14 04:22 PM

Quote:

I'd think about thermal lift coming off the runway.




Spoken like a glider pilot. <g>

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
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Russell Holton
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #386110 - 02/09/14 08:10 PM

Question: What causes the wake to drift downward?

I tried googling for a answer, but didn't find one. I did find this from avweb: "The air curling up around the wing tip forms a horizontal tornado that trails behind the airplane and tends to sink somewhat below the producing aircraft's flight path -- if that aircraft is in level flight. The vortices produced during a descent are somewhat less predictable."


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Ralph Jones
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Russell Holton]
      #386113 - 02/09/14 08:21 PM Attachment (111 downloads)

Quote:

What causes the wake to drift downward?



Newton. A wing generates lift by imparting downward momentum to the air, so the "inside" part of the vortices is moving downward faster than the "outside" part is moving up, and the core moves down at the average velocity.



--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Russell Holton]
      #386114 - 02/09/14 08:26 PM

Quote:

curling up around the wing tip forms a horizontal tornado that trails behind the airplane




Yup, interesting stuff, I used to watch Frank Sanders in his SeaFury put on a show with the smoke generators on each tip at OSH. Remember standing there one day watching and noticed the crowd around us looking AT the airplane as Frank flew past, I told them "Don't look at the Sea Fury, watch way behind the plane cuz that's where the show is!" Wish we could'a gotten a copy of a video there to show in recurrent training on the airline.

best, randy


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Randy Sohn
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #386117 - 02/09/14 08:57 PM

Quote:

or descending. This one climbed?




Scott, color me really puzzled over this one! Unmentioned in the analysis is any mention (that I can see) of the traffic preceding that E190? Wondering if anyone there who could've affected you with his wake? I spent a whole career making sure I landed just PAST the "touchdown point" of the preceding traffic and never had it not work. This is one of the situations that I'd previously discussed/described here on Avsig when Chris Manno had talked about having a definite touchdown target in the runway's beginning I do the same except I am a little different in that I "name my poison" as regards the touchdown target being at a certain marker on the runway's side which again is just past the point at which the preceding traffic touches down, puts his nosewheel on the ground and ceases generating lift.

best, randy


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Scott Perdue (50F)
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #386121 - 02/09/14 09:10 PM

Scott-

Winds like that are enough to stall one of the vortices from clearing the runway.... it can easily remain there for 5 min or more.

gunny

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Gunny
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Reams Goodloe
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #386136 - 02/10/14 12:48 AM



Scott -
From the AIM.... 7-3-3..

*****************
5.&#8194;There is a small segment of the aviation community that have become convinced that wake vortices may “bounce” up to twice their nominal steady state height. With a 200-foot span aircraft, the “bounce” height could reach approximately 200 feet AGL. This conviction is based on a single unsubstantiated report of an apparent coherent vortical flow that was seen in the volume scan of a research sensor. No one can say what conditions cause vortex bouncing, how high they bounce, at what angle they bounce, or how many times a vortex may bounce. On the other hand, no one can say for certain that vortices never “bounce.” Test data have shown that vortices can rise with the air mass in which they are embedded. Wind shear, particularly, can cause vortex flow field “tilting.” Also, ambient thermal lifting and orographic effects (rising terrain or tree lines) can cause a vortex flow field to rise. Notwithstanding the foregoing, pilots are reminded that they should be alert at all times for possible wake vortex encounters when conducting approach and landing operations. The pilot has the ultimate responsibility for ensuring appropriate separations and positioning of the aircraft in the terminal area to avoid the wake turbulence created by a preceding aircraft.
***************

FWIW, I seem to recall seeing some old smoke photos showing this, but can't place where that might be at this instant....

- Reams-


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Scott Perdue (50F)
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #386139 - 02/10/14 07:12 AM

Reams-

Good point, but we've got to remember the vortex ends at the ground and starts when the aircraft adopts a high-lift/ hit drag configuration (actually the vortex is always there, but not always energetic enough to flip another airplane).

Nature always surprises us!

--------------------
Gunny
www.eagleflyingmuseum.org


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #386140 - 02/10/14 07:15 AM

Randy -- The issue of traffic prior to the E190 was covered: <<Winds were light, 270/3 for runway 34, not a burble in the pattern, and the arrival prior to the E190 was a CRJ 5 mins before I was over the threshold. Not sure where the CRJ landed but I doubt it was as high as I was over the threshold.>>

Gunny, the puzzling thing to me on this was that according to "usual" rules the wake shouldn't have been at that altitude at that position (threshold) at all. Whatever the cause, the wake would likely have dissipated considerably had there been more turbulent air rather than this glass smooth condition.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #386142 - 02/10/14 08:50 AM

Quote:

issue of traffic prior to the E190 was covered: .....was a CRJ 5 mins before I was over the threshold




Yup, now I remember reading/seeing that, sorry, anyhow, still puzzling a lot over this one! Also, wondering if that "smoke" video mentioned earlier could've been one of Frank and the Hawker Sea Flogger at Oshkosh? Dunno.

best, randy


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Scott Perdue (50F)
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #386147 - 02/10/14 10:45 AM

Quote:

...........

Gunny, the puzzling thing to me on this was that according to "usual" rules the wake shouldn't have been at that altitude at that position (threshold) at all. Whatever the cause, the wake would likely have dissipated considerably had there been more turbulent air rather than this glass smooth condition.




It does seem unusual.... A Regional Jet doesn't produce as much wake as a 757 anyway. But I think it was an interesting combination of smooth, nearly calm winds.

Just goes to show you that you always have to be on your toes... until the airplane has been put to bed!

gunny

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Ralph Jones
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #386149 - 02/10/14 10:54 AM Attachment (112 downloads)

Here's a nice still shot, courtesy of a smoke generator...



--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Scott Perdue (50F)
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #386150 - 02/10/14 11:27 AM Attachment (105 downloads)

Quote:

........... still puzzling a lot over this one! Also, wondering if that "smoke" video mentioned earlier could've been one of Frank and the Hawker Sea Flogger at Oshkosh? Dunno.

best, randy




I believe the one they are talking about was the NASA study done on the east coast years ago... I think it was Wallops Island.... airliners through smoke generators.

After the US Air 737 crashed behind a 727 during a wake encounter they did some tests... I used the video in my upset course and here are a couple of snapshots. These are shots taken from tests in cruise flight, not configured for landing.



--------------------
Gunny
www.eagleflyingmuseum.org

Edited by Scott Perdue (50F) (02/10/14 11:28 AM)


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Scott Perdue (50F)
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Scott Perdue (50F)]
      #386151 - 02/10/14 11:28 AM Attachment (126 downloads)

tail cam..... I guess the point I am trying to make is that a wake upset can occur anytime you cross the flight path of an aircraft ahead of you if it hasn't had time to dissipate.

gunny



--------------------
Gunny
www.eagleflyingmuseum.org

Edited by Scott Perdue (50F) (02/10/14 11:30 AM)


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Randy Sohn
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Scott Perdue (50F)]
      #386154 - 02/10/14 12:13 PM

Quote:

believe the one they are talking about was the NASA study done on the east coast years ago... used the video in my upset course




Ah so, thanks, have you ever seen that overhead Langley Landing Loads Track video that I'd used in my hydroplaning course?

And, 2nd question, do you have any idea why the 757s were so much worse than others?

best, randy

Edited by Randy Sohn (02/10/14 12:24 PM)


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Scott Perdue (50F)
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #386164 - 02/10/14 01:49 PM

Quote:

....

Ah so, thanks, have you ever seen that overhead Langley Landing Loads Track video that I'd used in my hydroplaning course?

And, 2nd question, do you have any idea why the 757s were so much worse than others?

best, randy




I've seen it, but don't know where to get a copy of it. I wish I knew why the 757 is a medium aircraft, but a heavy for wake turbulence..... perhaps it has something to do with the wing design in addition to the weight.

--------------------
Gunny
www.eagleflyingmuseum.org


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Randy Sohn
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Scott Perdue (50F)]
      #386166 - 02/10/14 01:58 PM

Quote:

I've seen it, but don't know where to get a copy




Nos'sir, don't need a copy but sure used that video of the overhead glass a lot running recurrent training and discussing the three kinds of hydroplaning and that HS=9 x the square root of the TP in pounds formula.

best, randy


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Russell Holton
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #386172 - 02/10/14 03:06 PM

Quote:

Newton. A wing generates lift by imparting downward momentum to the air, so the "inside" part of the vortices is moving downward faster than the "outside" part is moving up, and the core moves down at the average velocity.




Ah. But of course on descent, that lift is minimized.


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Russell Holton]
      #386178 - 02/10/14 04:36 PM

Quote:

Ah. But of course on descent, that lift is minimized.



You mean the airplane isn't at 1g during a stabilized descent?


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Ralph Jones
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Russell Holton]
      #386179 - 02/10/14 04:38 PM

Quote:

Ah. But of course on descent, that lift is minimized.



Nope. As long as the airplane's in unaccelerated flight (i.e., straight line at constant speed), lift is equal to weight.

The amount of downwash decreases briefly as you're pushing over into a descent, but as soon as your path becomes a straight line, it's back to what it was.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #386181 - 02/10/14 04:46 PM

Quote:

As long as the airplane's in unaccelerated flight (i.e., straight line at constant speed), lift is equal to weight.



"Ah, gravity - thou art a heartless bitch." --Sheldon Cooper


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Russell Holton
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #386183 - 02/10/14 05:03 PM

Quote:

Nope. As long as the airplane's in unaccelerated flight (i.e., straight line at constant speed), lift is equal to weight.




True.

I'm wondering about the wake from the elevator. Given the theory, it also creates lift and so would have a wake of it's own, albeit much smaller.

I thought I remembered some airplanes have tails that develop lift and others that developed negative lift to keep the airplane level. Plus, on a decent, I'd expect them to interact differently then they would in level flight.


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Scott Perdue (50F)]
      #386184 - 02/10/14 05:12 PM

Gunny -- <<Just goes to show you that you always have to be on your toes... until the airplane has been put to bed!>>

So true, and it woke me up from my sleepy ride down the final.


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #386185 - 02/10/14 05:13 PM

Reams -- Interesting stuff about the "bouncing" vortex. This was a bit like a rising fastball I guess.

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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Scott Perdue (50F)]
      #386189 - 02/10/14 06:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

........... still puzzling a lot over this one! Also, wondering if that "smoke" video mentioned earlier could've been one of Frank and the Hawker Sea Flogger at Oshkosh? Dunno.

best, randy






I believe the one they are talking about was the NASA study done on the east coast years ago... I think it was Wallops Island.... airliners through smoke generators.

After the US Air 737 crashed behind a 727 during a wake encounter they did some tests... I used the video in my upset course and here are a couple of snapshots. These are shots taken from tests in cruise flight, not configured for landing.





Actually, only Parker-Hannifin thought that the 727 had anything to do with it. They made the rudder actuator valve that malfunctioned causing a rudder hard over and subsequent 1/4 Cuban 8. After that accident was closed, they re-opened the COS UAL accident that was previously attributed to a rotor (and some other whacko theories).


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Randy Sohn
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #386195 - 02/10/14 07:02 PM

Quote:

After the US Air 737 crashed......rudder actuator valve that malfunctioned causing a rudder hard over.....After that accident was closed, they re-opened the COS UAL accident that was previously attributed to a rotor (and some other whacko theories).




Bruce, didn't they increase the V2 or something like that also?

best, randy


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #386198 - 02/10/14 07:33 PM

No, they increased the Flaps 5 minimum airspeed to make is faster than the "crossover speed" which is where the ailerons can overpower a hard over rudder. The aileron droop starts at flaps 5.

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Randy Sohn
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #386199 - 02/10/14 08:00 PM

Quote:

No, they increased the Flaps 5 minimum airspeed




Right, thanks, I knew it was something or other like that, saw it riding jumpseat on a SWA 73 to MAF a few times.

best, randy


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Scott Perdue (50F)
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #386218 - 02/11/14 07:22 AM

Quote:

..........

Actually, only Parker-Hannifin thought that the 727 had anything to do with it. They made the rudder actuator valve that malfunctioned causing a rudder hard over and subsequent 1/4 Cuban 8. After that accident was closed, they re-opened the COS UAL accident that was previously attributed to a rotor (and some other whacko theories).




Bruce, you're right. I've got the NTSB video of that crash as well.... very interesting.

--------------------
Gunny
www.eagleflyingmuseum.org


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Scott Perdue (50F)
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #386219 - 02/11/14 07:24 AM

Quote:

..........

Bruce, didn't they increase the V2 or something like that also?

best, randy




I don't recall the V2 being increased, but the approach speed is MUCH higher than it needs to be in order for the flight controls to have enough authority to overcome a rudder hardcover at the old approach speed. In both accidents the speed was a factor in the upset.

--------------------
Gunny
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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #386263 - 02/11/14 05:07 PM

Quote:

No, they increased the Flaps 5 minimum airspeed to make is faster than the "crossover speed" which is where the ailerons can overpower a hard over rudder. The aileron droop starts at flaps 5.




Different deal, but the drill in a [Socata] TBM with runaway rudder trim is to slow down so the hard over rudder isn't exerting so much aerodynamic force (also makes the counterforce one can exert on the rudder pedal more relevant).

This emergency procedure came about from an incident in which a pilot cruised in that condition for a while, the fuel level got low enough to unport the intake on the high-side wing, and the predictable consequences ensued, including a power off landing.

Mac


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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #386305 - 02/12/14 05:12 PM

Well I've had a few wake issues in my flying -but in my B-747 days, we had a lot of room and a lot of mass.

I've had a few wake issues in the B-727. Nothing too bad except they were close to the ground. Yes, I always assumed the wake decended and would follow any cross wind.

Regards,

Dux -from Tucson and will not mention the temps as it bothers Randy a lot. Read the paper.


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Randy Sohn
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #386309 - 02/12/14 07:28 PM

Quote:

Dux -from Tucson and will not mention the temps as it bothers Randy a lot. Read the paper.




Nope, not really, just chuckle.

re >>wake issues<<

Dunno, I've always just made my new target touchdown point at the point where he de-rotates. Tho after reading what happened to Scott, now I gotta wonder?l

best, randy (who's listening to the radio and wondering if the WX is really that bad in Carolina - or whether it's just some more of the wide eyes?)

Edited by Randy Sohn (02/12/14 07:32 PM)


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
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Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #386310 - 02/12/14 08:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Dux -from Tucson and will not mention the temps as it bothers Randy a lot. Read the paper.




Nope, not really, just chuckle.

re >>wake issues<<

Dunno, I've always just made my new target touchdown point at the point where he de-rotates. Tho after reading what happened to Scott, now I gotta wonder?l

best, randy (who's listening to the radio and wondering if the WX is really that bad in Carolina - or whether it's just some more of the wide eyes?)




Half and half. Eight inches of snow and ten pounds of stupid.


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Randy Sohn
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Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #386312 - 02/12/14 08:42 PM

Quote:


Half and half. Eight inches of snow and ten pounds of stupid.




Yup, thought meb'be like that but didn't know, been thinking 'bout you down there, hearing about ice!

best, randy


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #386348 - 02/13/14 12:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Half and half. Eight inches of snow and ten pounds of stupid.




Yup, thought meb'be like that but didn't know, been thinking 'bout you down there, hearing about ice!

best, randy




It was -ZR all night, but it's turned back to S this morning. Nice and crusty outside.


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #386349 - 02/13/14 01:11 PM

Quote:

It was -ZR all night



You're showing your age!


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #386351 - 02/13/14 01:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It was -ZR all night



You're showing your age!




And proudly so, I might add.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #386352 - 02/13/14 01:30 PM

Quote:


It was -ZR all night, but it's turned back to S this morning. Nice and crusty outside.




I just told Sir Ralfus on the phone 'bout your half and half joke!

best, randy


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #386353 - 02/13/14 01:35 PM

Quote:

-ZR all night....You're showing your age!




Yup, might well be - but (the way I learned it on the 747s to the Orient was "Blowing Rice") -ZR beats BR. Chuckle.

best, randy


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #386357 - 02/13/14 04:03 PM

Up here'n Statesville we had a mixture of UP and SN, later IP. Then this morning got at least 6 inches of new snowball packable snow.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Anne Umphrey (KBED)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 12756
Loc: KBED
Re: New (to me) Wake Issue [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #386387 - 02/14/14 11:27 AM

I saw the governor (?) of one of the Carolinas, or mayor of Columbia perhaps, say on TV before this storm hit that it wasn't going to be like Atlanta. They were planning ahead. He kind of trashed Atlanta for letting the icemagedon happen. But then, I saw the major highways in that state completely blocked with cars like Atlanta had been the week before. Nope, not a good idea to let everyone out from work at the same time. One lesson not learned….
Anne

--------------------
You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky.
- Amelia Earhart, 1897 - 1937


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