AVSIG: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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Gerry Coon
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Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 19
Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J
      #155217 - 05/16/07 11:57 PM

Has anyone completed the WAAS upgrade on a J model Mooney? I scheduled mine today and they told me to measure from the center of the AI to the left edge of the 430, if the distance is greater than 11.8" it is supposed to need the secondary annunciator. One the Mooney the AI and DG are offset slightly to the left of the center of the control yoke and would not meet the measurement as defined. I'm hoping not to need the secondary annuniciator - anybody been thru this yet? Thanks for any help.

------------------------------------\
Why do some upgrades require an annunciator light assembly to be installed?

(Garmin manual 190-00357-02 section 2.5.1.1) The original 400/500 installation manual only gave general regulatory guidance for the distance between the GPS receiver and the pilot's primary field of view. The new 400/500 WAAS install manual is very specific regarding how far the 400/500 series units can be placed from the pilots primary view centerline (11.8" for the 400 series and 12.1" for the 500 series horizontal). Also, the top of the 400/500 series unit can't be lower than the bottom edge of the primary flight instruments (IE Cirrus SR20/22). Any 400/500 units that fall outside of this 11.8" or 12.1" spec will require an external annunciator be installed (near the pilot) to annunciate the various modes the 400/500 unit may be in. The required annunciators are; VLOC, GPS, INTEG, TERM, APR, MSG, and WPT. Since the location of the 400/500 unit is determined by the airframe manufacture avionics mounting provisions, moving the 400/500 series unit will usually not be an option. Garmin has quite a bit of guidance in the install manual on how to determine the pilots primary view centerline, but in general the spec states that the left edge of the 400/500 units must be 11.8" for 400 series or 12.1" for 500 series (or less) to the center of the pilots horizon gyro. Aircraft that have the 400/500 units farther than 11.8" / 12.1" from the center of the horizon, will require the external annunciator to be installed and this will increase the cost of the WAAS upgrade. Penn estimates the cost of the external annunciator + installation to run approximately $875.00 to $1195.00 depending on the existing configurations. Some airframes that have the 400/500 farther than 11.8" / 12.1" from the center of the horizon gyro are: Beech 33/36 series prior to 1984 with the center throw over yoke, Grumman AA5 airframes, Commander C114 airframes, Cirrus SR20/22 (see below).

--------------------
Gerry Coon (SEA/S50)


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Ed Williams [PHOG]
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Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 2779
Loc: Maui
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Gerry Coon]
      #155261 - 05/17/07 01:28 PM

In our 182, we satisfied the pilot view requirements. To dodge this bullet you would need to get a special dispensation from the FAA, since the shop won't be able to say that it was installed per Garmin's instructions. Unless you have an in at the FSDO, I'd say that's not likely to be fruitful.

Ed


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Tom Henderson (KOXR/SoCal)
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Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 588
Loc: Ventura, CA
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Gerry Coon]
      #155513 - 05/19/07 01:15 PM

Gerry-

We have the same problem with our Debonair. So we bit the bullet and installed an additional annunciator.

-Tom H.
Ventura, CA


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Gerry Coon
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Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 19
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Gerry Coon]
      #155562 - 05/19/07 10:57 PM

Got some good news today after some web research and discussion with my Avionics shop an annunciator is not required on the M20J if an GI106A OBS is in place - a bit complicated but full details can be found at this site: www.lancasteravionics.com/waas.htm web page

--------------------
Gerry Coon (SEA/S50)


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Ed Williams [PHOG]
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Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Gerry Coon]
      #155570 - 05/20/07 02:22 AM

It has a built-in annunciator.

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Gerry Coon
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Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 19
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Gerry Coon]
      #159473 - 06/22/07 11:59 PM

Just an update for any Mooney owners - had the unit upgraded and installed at Pacific Coast Avionics at KUAO - no annunciators required on the M20J, that was the good news. They did have to replace the antenna cable which added 6-7+ hours - old cable wasnt up to spec. Did the flight testing and its pretty cool with the glideslope on LPV and LNAV+VNAV approaches.

Interestingly the Flight Supplement that becomes part of the POH has some limitations based on Garmins current software release: 1) cant be used for sole enroute navigation source, 2) alternatve must have other than a GPS approach which you are equipped to fly. We'll have to wait and see if Garmin comes out with a new SW rev to the box to make it a sole navigation source.

--------------------
Gerry Coon (SEA/S50)


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Ed Williams [PHOG]
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Reged: 08/31/01
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Loc: Maui
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Gerry Coon]
      #159482 - 06/23/07 02:00 AM

Indeed. The flight manual supplement seems to contradict the advertized
C146 approval.
I understand only dealers can update the software. Who pays for that, I
wonder?

Ed


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Ron Rosenfeld (EPM)
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Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 2772
Loc: Maine
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Gerry Coon]
      #159487 - 06/23/07 06:51 AM

<< Interestingly the Flight Supplement that becomes part of the POH has some
<< limitations based on Garmins current software release:

Even more interestingly, those of us who had a CNX80/GNS480 installed prior
to that limitation being published, are under no particular legal obligation
to comply (Part 91) with that limitation.

--------------------
--ron


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Ron Rosenfeld (EPM)
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Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Ed Williams [PHOG]]
      #159488 - 06/23/07 06:51 AM

Ed,

So far with the CNX80, all of the software updates have been paid for by
Garmin (to the dealer). A few dealers missed that in the documentation from
Garmin and did charge the owners (according to info on the GNS480 newsgroup).

--------------------
--ron


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Ed Williams [PHOG]]
      #159489 - 06/23/07 08:36 AM

Ed -- I see that Garmin has come up with a date in September, by which
owners who put their units on the list for upgrade prior to its release must
schedule their upgrades in order to get the $1500 price. Not the most
customer friendly, as the current 530W software is deficient in several
respects and, as you say, any future software revision (supposed to be due in
the fall) must be installed by a dealer. I have been putting off getting
the upgrade, until Garmin got its software issues put to bed and made the
software fully functional, and so I can avoid a 2nd, certain, trip to the
shop, even for a "while you wait" installation. But I've now got to get on
the schedule for upgrade...January 2008 would suit me fine.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Ed Williams [PHOG]
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Loc: Maui
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #159507 - 06/23/07 02:42 PM

It's been clear they have to cut off the upgrade. I'm sure they're not
making money at $1500!

You're aware the E6B function in the 430W software doesn't work right?


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Ed Williams [PHOG]]
      #159528 - 06/23/07 06:34 PM

Ed -- Yes. I'm a single 530 person, with a KX-155 as no. 2...and I'm
understanding that the BK units cause some problems with the new "W" GPS
reception, far more than before.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Tom Henderson (KOXR/SoCal)
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Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 588
Loc: Ventura, CA
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #159559 - 06/24/07 03:09 AM

Quote:

I'm a single 530 person, with a KX-155 as no. 2...and I'm
understanding that the BK units cause some problems with the new "W" GPS
reception, far more than before.




Ruh-roh...

We have a single-430 w/KX155 as number two.

Can you tell me more about the interference issues?

Thanks! We had the WAAS upgrade completed a week ago but I haven't been able to fly with it yet.

-Tom H.
Ventura, CA


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Tom Henderson (KOXR/SoCal)]
      #159560 - 06/24/07 06:59 AM

Tom -- I don't have time to go back and research the messages now on the CPA
forum, but in general terms it involved the KX-155 radiating a lot more mess
that interfered with the integrity of the GPS signals, causing some to have
to relocate comm antennae to get them farther away from the GPS antenna.
There have also been problems with the ELTs passively re-radiating and
causing GPS interference. I've read about a fair amount of radio shops
chasing their tails getting this straightened out.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Ron Rosenfeld (EPM)
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Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 2772
Loc: Maine
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #159600 - 06/24/07 05:01 PM

That's interesting, Scott.

I have a CNX80 and a KX155, and I don't believe the GPS and comm antennas are
that far apart. The installer didn't mention any problems.

--------------------
--ron


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treploW nellA
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Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 980
Loc: NNJ(me)/DXR(plane)
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #160600 - 07/02/07 04:07 PM

Quote:

I see that Garmin has come up with a date in September, by which owners who put their units on the list for upgrade prior to its release must schedule their upgrades in order to get the $1500 price.




What I have read is you must be on Garmins registered list by August 31, 2007 and the upgrade must be scheduled by May 31, 2008 to get the $1,500 upgrade price.

--------------------
Allen


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Gerry Coon
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Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 19
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Gerry Coon]
      #161357 - 07/09/07 12:20 AM

Another update on the WAAS GNS430 installation - yesterday I did some long distance flying from the SEA to PDX area to GTF and back to SEA. On the way over we were seeing some pretty good groundspeeds at 11.5K - wanting to brag to my ex-Air Force son in law about the Waas GPS I said lets look at the winds. Well guess what? On the current software release there is no Wind Direction, Speed or Headwind/Tailwind component. I was fiddling with this from
the Dalles to alomost Spokane - reading the manual trying to see if there was a menu setup issue or was I doing something wrong (6 years experience with old GNS430). Well I got to Montana to drop off son-in-law and called avionics shop, of course main guy wasnt there but I left a voice mail.

Back in Seattle I had a message: current Garmin WAAS softare release doesnt support winds aloft calculation but will be fixed in future release - he mentioned Vertical speeds also but they seemed to be working fine for me. Be nice if their was a web site or place that acutally detailed what works and what doesnt - OH well I'll see them at OSH and give a bit of customer feedback. Other wise the box really navigates nice!

--------------------
Gerry Coon (SEA/S50)


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Gerry Coon
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Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 19
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Gerry Coon]
      #178994 - 12/17/07 12:26 PM

Final update in this saga - Garmin has finally released Software Version 3.0 that fixes the wind calc and also makes this a full standalone WAAS navigator. I stopped by the local avionics shop last week and they had just received the software from Garmin - I was their first guinea pig - the update went well and only took them about 30 minutes. You get updated software and a whole new POH supplement that removes all the prior restrictions. Flight testing was excellent - one thing that impressed me was the lead in on a direct entry hold - the box provide course reversal guidance and track to intercept the inbound course pretty cool.

--------------------
Gerry Coon (SEA/S50)


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Gerry Coon
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Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 19
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Gerry Coon]
      #178998 - 12/17/07 12:42 PM

>one thing that impressed me was the lead in on a direct entry hold - the box provide course reversal guidance and track to intercept the inbound course pretty cool.<

I meant to say parallel entry not direct.

--------------------
Gerry Coon (SEA/S50)


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don muncy
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Reged: 12/31/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Dallas Texas
Re: Garmin 430 WAAS Upgrade for M20J [Re: Gerry Coon]
      #180084 - 12/30/07 04:19 PM

From my experience, the installer has quite a bit of latitude in determining where the point is that you must measure from. My 231 (I'm sure) has the same configuration as your J, and my avionics shop installed mine without an annunciator. I would suggest that if you have a problem, you shop around and find an installer who will do it. Incidentally, mine was done in Dallas.

--------------------
Don Muncy


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