AVSIG: Citation II info wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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AVSIG Discussion Sections >> Cessna

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Citation II info
      #390697 - 05/13/14 04:36 PM

Anyone have time in a Citation II or know where I can get some perspective and operating cost numbers? I'm looking at some different planes and there's one of these available here. Looks like a LOT of them are on the market, but may be a way to get some initial jet time with a relatively low entry cost. Sorry to bug folks because I'm weighing several options.

Thanks,

Best,

Dave


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Mase Taylor
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390711 - 05/13/14 08:55 PM

Dang, Dave, it seems like only yesterday you were exploring the idea of a KA-90. So now you have Jet-A in your veins, huh?

I believe the II is an early 550 model with the straight wing, thus not having the best speed but easier handling and none of the drawbacks of the swept-wing models?




Edited by Mase Taylor (05/13/14 09:00 PM)


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #390713 - 05/13/14 09:09 PM

Quote:

I believe the II is an early 550 model with the straight wing, thus not having the best speed




Yup, been on and around several of those, old joke "lookout for bird strike damage on the trailing edges".

During Transpo-72 I flew the #3 (IIRC) demo plane from Dulles to Leesburg, initially I thought we must be going like a bat outa h--- but then I looked at the instruments again and realized not so. Like the first Lears I flew. Anyways (again IIRC) American was gonna make their sims available to transition the pilots buying them, a deal with Cessna.

best, randy

Edited by Randy Sohn (05/13/14 09:15 PM)


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #390718 - 05/13/14 11:06 PM

Thanks. I can find general info. Looks like a good payload and range for me. My shop is filling me in on maintenance. I wondered about real world speeds and altitude. Service ceiling is FL430, but takes a long time to get up there. Slower than a lot of traffic in the low 30s, so where do these really fly? What is normal cruise there? Fuel burn, that kind of stuff. I can pull some of that up on Flightaware and Fltplan.com. I'm being told it will be an easy transition both from the flying and insurance standpoint and be relatively easy to move to any five series Cessna from there.
Appreciate any thoughts. Of course, I'll need a type rating; studying for the ATP written now.

Best,

Dave


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #390719 - 05/13/14 11:10 PM

Yep, that's it. Eight seats and good range with crew and four pacs. I can leave off a bit of fuel and have a 1,200 pound payload.
The KA is great and does burn jet-A, but on trips, faster, higher, and better range would be nice. Don't know where I'm headed, but this seems to be a step in the right direction.

Best,

Dave


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390720 - 05/13/14 11:11 PM

Over two years and almost 350 hours in the KA now.

Best,

Dave


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Mase Taylor
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390722 - 05/13/14 11:18 PM

Quote:

Over two years and almost 350 hours in the KA now.

Best,

Dave




Well time does fly when you're having fun, seems like only yesterday.

I imagine all that time means two or 3 trips to Simcom as well, which is good and also makes the insurance guy happy...

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #390723 - 05/13/14 11:32 PM

Yes, three times (g)
Did initial here and wasn't satisfied with the program. SIMCOM folks offered for me to get some extra time to make up for it; so, got recurrent and a lot of extra hours in the sim.
Just finished recurrent this year in April.

Best,

Dave


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Mase Taylor
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390724 - 05/13/14 11:43 PM

Quote:

Yep, that's it. Eight seats and good range with crew and four pacs. I can leave off a bit of fuel and have a 1,200 pound payload.
The KA is great and does burn jet-A, but on trips, faster, higher, and better range would be nice. Don't know where I'm headed, but this seems to be a step in the right direction.

Best,

Dave




Well all I can say is if you can pull this off, your nieces are gonna swoon and Uncle Dave is gonna be the Ace of the Base...

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Mase Taylor
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #390725 - 05/13/14 11:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I believe the II is an early 550 model with the straight wing, thus not having the best speed




Yup, been on and around several of those, old joke "lookout for bird strike damage on the trailing edges...

best, randy




Un huh, that is how it got nicknamed the "Slowtation" by folks who should have known better or were consumed with envy.

It is, after all, a JET, entry-level perhaps, but quite capable, Cessna-simple, supported, and I would bet, a gas to fly.

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Mase Taylor
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390726 - 05/14/14 12:02 AM

Quote:

I wondered about real world speeds and altitude. Service ceiling is FL430, but takes a long time to get up there. Slower than a lot of traffic in the low 30s, so where do these really fly? What is normal cruise there?
Best,

Dave




I bet some of our ATC veterans can tell ya bout this...

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390727 - 05/14/14 06:44 AM

Dave,

I'm flying with a guy today who operates a II, I'll pick his brain for real world. What I remember from years ago is an advertised 380kts, was really about 360kts.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #390729 - 05/14/14 08:21 AM

Thanks Jeff. I understand the phase five (gear) is the expensive inspection which is every three years.

Best,

Dave


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390733 - 05/14/14 11:39 AM

The Sierra Industries web site compares this and some other planes to their Sierra conversion planes.
They show:
Max cruise 385
Normal cruise 377
LR cruise 321
Two engine climb 3370fpm; single 1057
Ceiling 43,000 Climb to altitude 45 minutes; this is one reason I wonder where these normally cruise.
Max range is 1594 with about 600 pounds payload plus crew which looks great. 1,220 with all seats full which also works.
Takeoff SL is 2,990; ISA plus 20 at 5,000 feet is 6.870 which would certainly limit higher elevation air fields when hot.
Looks like a lot of baggage ares.

Anyway, seems to make sense for me. There are a bunch of these on the market which, of course, affects value. But it also allows one to get in pretty reasonably. This has a bit better than mid time engines, nice cabin and paint, just old (original) avionics which I'd need to upgrade. The way I'm looking at the numbers, if I flew it five years and sold for salvage value at the end, it's reasonable for me.

http://www.sijet.com/download/Sijet_2012_Cit550-551.pdf?inline

Best,

Dave


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Frank Van Haste [VKX]
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390736 - 05/14/14 12:04 PM

Dave, Hal Shevers (of Sporty's note) has been flying a C-II for a long time. I recall him saying it was a very straightforward airplane to fly.

Frank


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Tom Tyson [SUW]
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Re: Citation II info (Calling Al Wolpert) [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390737 - 05/14/14 12:28 PM

Dave,

This may be a brain fart, but doesn't (didn't) Al Wolpert, your co-presenter at ROAgig '12, fly a C-II?

Anyone here know how to get in touch will Al these days?

- TT

--------------------
Tom Tyson-A&P

Pilots without Mechanics are just Pedestrians with fancy watches.

Edited by Tom Tyson [GSO] (05/14/14 12:38 PM)


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


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Citation II info (Calling Al Wolpert) [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #390738 - 05/14/14 01:35 PM

Actually Allen flies a CJ2 (C525), not exactly the same as the Citation II
(C550).


Not sure what the differences are though.

Andy


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Frank Van Haste [VKX]
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Re: Citation II info (Calling Al Wolpert) [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #390739 - 05/14/14 01:47 PM

TT, if my memory is working, Allen flies a CJ2, not a C-II. I don't have an email address...could ping him on twitter, tho', he's @ajwolpert.

FVH


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info (Calling Al Wolpert) [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #390749 - 05/14/14 03:46 PM

Thanks guys! I've chatted with the pilot flying the plane now (corporate plane) and the fella that runs my shop that has some CII time. Also have pics and an agreed to price which is attractive to me. Seems the plane just went through a pre-buy and the buyer went to a Hawker. Left the plane far away and seller had to get it back. They lowered price a bit to move it along and get along with their business (g). My guy said he saw 350 to 360 in the one he flew in the Mid 30 altitudes. This has a gross weight increase and heavier gear and axles. Plane just went through a phase I to V on pre-buy; so, there may be a way to avoid another Phase V for three years. Nice interior and decent paint from pics. We'll try to view the plane ASAP but want to get a contract agreed to first. We'll want to get WAAS Garmins in here if we proceed.

Best,

Dave


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Rick Durden
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390769 - 05/15/14 12:42 AM

Dave,

Can only encourage you. My Citation time is all in the 501 and 500, baby brothers to the 550. From what I recall, your speeds are about right - 370, 380 knots in cruise. And, I heard all the Slowtation jokes, but I went into the Citation from 20-series Lears where I considered any runway less than 5,000 feet long to be a short field. The Citation goes where early Lears fear to tread and when it comes down to it for normal mission profiles, 370 knots does very, very well - the Lear will be rolling out on landing as you pass the FAF inbound.

And, for goo system design, I just recall that when I opened up the electrical system diagram on the Citation at FlightSafety my comment was "where's the rest of it?" It turned out to be so much simpler and more reliable than the Lear it just blew me away.

There are a lot of mods for the II - and technology has provided engines that burn a lot less fuel, but those engines cost so much more that it may be cheaper to buy the fuel. I think that's why the II just keeps going and going and going...

For a while, moving into the Citation after the Lear, my reaction was to not feel macho and sort of slink off into the corner to hide because the airplane was so incredibly easy to fly. My experience was that it had systems that had been designed by engineers who understood human factors - and it didn't sit on the ramp scheming of ways to kill me. (I've stalled Citations, it's no big deal - I am unwilling to stall a 20 series Lear.) I came to love flying the Citation I and, my recollection was at the time on looking at the numbers, the Citation II was an even better airplane.

What a lot of people forget is that Cessna has been building pilot-friendly jets since 1954. The 500 was a (how I hat this phrase) "game changer" for GA jets; the I fixed a lot of the 500's shortcomings and the II was wonderful. After that, other than the swept wing birds, I think it's all been built on tweaking the II. If I were in a position to own and fly a II, I think I'd jump at it.

What bugs me is that I don't recall at what altitude I flew the I when going places. I clearly recall always running the Lear 23 and 24B at FL 410 for the first hour and then FL450 for the rest of the trip, but I just can't remember where the I was best. (I hate this getting old and forgetful stuff.)

Warmest regards,
Rick


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Rick Durden]
      #390771 - 05/15/14 06:18 AM

Thanks Rick! Very helpful. I keep hearing how simple it is to fly, but Flight Safety, SIMCOM and Simuflight all have two week initial courses; then, I need a five days for single pilot! Getting it under contract now. Nice plane for it's age with a lot of extras. We're going to get Garmin units in it right away. It does have thrust reversers, eight passenger seats, finished out rear baggage area. Going by pics now, but owned by a company here in the area for the last five years with friends in common. I'll get into range and weight and balance ASAP. Heavy duty gear with gross weight increase which means one can land sooner after takeoff with full fuel(g). Their pilot and my friend both talked about middle 30s and said the only time that could be problematic was on arrivals to Lax or other busy airports with arrivals. I don't do much of that, usually go to the satellite, GA airport if I can. Visiting family is that case.

Best,

Dave


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Rick Durden
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390774 - 05/15/14 09:25 AM

Dave,

The initial type rating course at FSI was two weeks back in the early 1980s. Single pilot was one more sim session, don't recall if extra days were tacked on. Just recalling that single pilot equipment included a boom mic attached to the left side window so the pilot could talk hands free - no one used headsets back then.

Umm, also recalling that I was surprised how fast the engine spool up time was compared to the Lear, very little delay.

Hope you enjoy the airplane.

Warmest regards,
Rick


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Rick Durden]
      #390776 - 05/15/14 10:58 AM

Quote:

initial type rating course at FSI.....Single pilot was one more sim session......Hope you enjoy the airplane.




Dave, sure do wish I could help you a bit but Rick's comments here more than encompass what little I knew about the airplane, sure do concur with Rick's hope, wish I could help and am sending you by separate mail someone who flies them for some electric tool company and others, also gives type ratings.

I also recall the SP training, interesting stuff!

best, randy


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Steve Stombaugh (IND)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390779 - 05/15/14 12:05 PM

Dave, I'll PM you my phone - Mitch woke me up. I'm ashamed to say I couldn't remember my log-in.

Steve


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Steve Stombaugh (IND)]
      #390780 - 05/15/14 12:29 PM

Thanks! Several folks have been very helpful.

This plane went through what appears to be a very thorough pre-buy by another potential purchaser who dropped it to purchase another plane. Inspecting shop wrote it up as un-airworthy for a couple seemingly small fixes and seller had to go get it. They weren't flying it anymore, so, had to get a crew that was current. Brought their mechanic up who cured the immediate issues. So, now they want to make sure if we take it somewhere for a pre-buy, we return it in current condition (g). I don't know details, but they sound like they just did a handshake deal and got burned a bit.
Of course, the numbers have to work for me going in. We'll probably go down and look at the plane with the squawk sheet in hand and see if we need to renegotiate before taking it to pre-buy.


Thanks.

Dave


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390783 - 05/15/14 03:44 PM

Like the CII from all I see, read and have been told, but this one seems to have a few issues the Seller doesn't want to address. We'll tell them of our interest, but that they would need to fix airworthy issues before we were willing to proceed. They offered a bit lower price to sell AS IS subject to a pre-buy. We don't want to go through the pain of moving, inspecting and dropping with what we see..sigh. So, I'll probably keep poking around. Maybe this seller will reevaluate their position.

Best,

Dave


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Russell Holton
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390785 - 05/15/14 04:42 PM

Quote:

they would need to fix airworthy issues before we were willing to proceed.



Strikes me as odd they'd be reluctant to address that. Unless they think it would escape notice in another pre-buy.


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Ralph Jones
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Russell Holton]
      #390786 - 05/15/14 04:48 PM

Quote:

Unless they think it would escape notice in another pre-buy.



...or they know enough history about the discrepancies to know they go deeper than the existing pre-buy disclosed.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Russell Holton
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #390788 - 05/15/14 04:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Unless they think it would escape notice in another pre-buy.



...or they know enough history about the discrepancies to know they go deeper than the existing pre-buy disclosed.






I know when buying a house, there's frequently a set-side in escrow to fix discrepancies that comes out of what the seller receives. Is there anything like that when buying airplanes?

Edited by Russell Holton (05/15/14 04:55 PM)


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Ralph Jones
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Russell Holton]
      #390793 - 05/15/14 05:36 PM

Beats me...

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #390797 - 05/15/14 08:06 PM

Anything that's contractually possible may be done. What I found the norm is, buyer does a pre-buy inspection. Seller agrees to repair any item that affects airworthiness up to a specified amount. If more, either party may terminate or negotiate amounts that are over.

Best,

Dave


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Steve Stombaugh (IND)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390817 - 05/16/14 09:28 AM

In this class aircraft, what Dave describes is the norm. I've had buyers want to walk away when the seller wouldn't fix items that were NOT airworthiness related. As with most anything, if one wants 'perfect', they either need to buy new or be willing to pay to have it made that way. That begin said, it is like buying a house - you're almost always buying someone else's problems.

As an operator, I've always tried to keep the aircraft in 'sellable' condition - i.e., such that there would NO squawks on a pre-purchase inspection. I figured you're either going to spend the money now, or when you go to sell it, why not enjoy the fruits of having it in tip-top condition?


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Steve Stombaugh (IND)]
      #390824 - 05/16/14 12:18 PM

There are a couple other issues on the plane I looked at. The biggest is impellers only have 1,000 cycles left even through TBO on the engines are 2,200 hours from now. So, one would have to make longer trips be careful with things that could cause more cycles. Where a part 91 operator may fly an engine past TBO, they cannot pass a stated part limit. So, in a few years, I'd have to find new engines or overhaul these even if they were running strong. Seller had a previous problem, but I didn't do that and won't be treated like all folks conduct themselves in that manner. We heard the seller's side of how the buyer treated him poorly, but when we got the pre-buy inspection, there was numerous issues including corrosion and engine related. So, we just don't have a need to get into a problem plane.

Flying is supposed to be fun, and if it's becoming a chore, time to move on (g).
The KA transition was very easy with the plane being here, me flying it 20 hours before purchasing, my shop, and reasonable seller: maybe I'm spoiled (g). I think I'll find a way to get some Citation time and take my time looking for a CII. One thing this did was convince me this would be a great plane for my mission.

Best,

Dave


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390826 - 05/16/14 12:31 PM

Quote:

maybe I'm spoiled (g)




Au contraire, mi amigo, I'd allow as to how you're just developing some "salt" in this business!

best, randy


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Ralph Hood
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390845 - 05/16/14 06:36 PM

Dave S:

<<Anything that's contractually possible may be done. >>

Now that's a great sentence.

Ralph H

--------------------
Ralph Hood
www.ralphhood.com


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Ralph Hood]
      #390848 - 05/16/14 06:56 PM

Thanks Ralph. Coming from you, a real complement! Don't get many of those 'bout my writing.

Best,

Dave


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Tom Charlton
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #391020 - 05/20/14 03:08 PM

Quote:

Anyone have time in a Citation II or know where I can get some perspective and operating cost numbers? I'm looking at some different planes and there's one of these available here. Looks like a LOT of them are on the market, but may be a way to get some initial jet time with a relatively low entry cost. Sorry to bug folks because I'm weighing several options.

Thanks,

Best,

Dave



Hi Dave,
Cessna Citation II would be an interesting evolution for you. Have you looked at the Piaggio Avanti? One sexy look’n airplane. Looks like cruise speeds similar to the C-II. Don’t know how it compares otherwise. Field requirements, useful load, purchase price, cost of operation etc.

Regards,
Tom Charlton

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Tom Charlton]
      #391021 - 05/20/14 03:30 PM

Tom: A good friend related to me: If you want sexy, buy Italian; if you want dependable, buy German (g). That plane has a lot of issues and a fairly high purchase price. Buyer's market for Citations right now.

Best,

Dave


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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #391035 - 05/20/14 11:12 PM

Dave -

In the hangar at DAL that used to house my plane, and in the three adjoining hangars, sit 15 Avantis in various states of disrepair - engines and control surfaces off the wing, lots of cobwebs. These are Avanti I models that were operated by the now-bankrupt Avantair. It is a sad sight. I understand that there are two or three other airports around the country hosting similar proportions of the fleet.

Avantair was a fractional ownership operation that strived to keep the identities of individual share owners secret from each other. Some enterprising owners set up a website that facilitated the task of identifying the 2 - 16 owners that owned each plane. Some of those owners got together and tried to retrieve their planes, leading to the hangar doors being screwed closed. That security measure has been relaxed a bit in the last few months, and I see mechanics working on the planes now, but they still seem a long way from being airworthy.

It's interesting to see the PT6a-66D engines off the wings and on the stands. The stacks are on backwards! And I can't figure out how they separate ice from the intake air - there doesn't seem to be a place to interpose what you KA drivers call ice vanes.

I remember the Operation Raincheck at ZFW (that you organized) where AVSIG's-own Scott Voight, commented what a screamer the Avanti was, outperforming many light jets.

Best,
Mac


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Mac Tichenor (DAL)]
      #391260 - 05/27/14 09:59 AM

Quote:

In the hangar at DAL that used to house my plane, and in the three adjoining hangars, sit .....sad sight




Mac, interesting to see, I can't recall what Beech called them (just occurred to me now as I type, Starship, correct Rickoshay?) but several years go when I parked the B-29 FIFI at the Wichita airport they placed me in the front of a hangar. I told them I didn't want to leave it there long since it was in front of a hangar door and that was not my thing! They assured me that a few of those doors were not needing to be opened so relax, full of recalled Starships.

best, randy


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #391266 - 05/27/14 12:00 PM

There's a Starship still flying out of Addison. I see it every now and then.

Best,

Dave


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #391276 - 05/27/14 04:40 PM

Quote:

There's a Starship still flying out of Addison




Ah-so, I'd always heard that one or two of them escaped Beechcraft's clutches, I dunno. Rickoshay?

best, randy


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Rick Durden
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #391278 - 05/27/14 07:12 PM

Randy,

To my knowledge, Beech's buy-back of the Starship was not mandatory and at least one is still in private hands. However, getting parts may not be possible as I've been told Beech is not supporting the airplane(s) in the field.

Warmest regards,
Rick


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Rick Durden]
      #391279 - 05/27/14 07:38 PM

I've been told there are four or five still in private hands and I think some folks have access to some salvage parts, but it was awhile back I was told that. I'm sure ABS knows.

Best,

Dave


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Rick Durden]
      #391355 - 05/29/14 08:26 PM

I've seen two different ones.

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #391361 - 05/29/14 09:21 PM

Got a POH and some training materials on the CII. Starting to get a real clear picture of what it will do and fuel burn along with operating costs. Fella at a local flight school says he can access one we can lease and fly a bit to see what i think. May have to wait until after vacation. Business is getting pretty busy too.

Best,

Dave


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John Tucci (LDJ)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #391435 - 05/31/14 01:28 PM

To date, there are 5 Beech 2000's left in the FAA database.

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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #391493 - 06/02/14 12:17 AM

Quote:

Got a POH and some training materials on the CII...




I am following your deliberations with great interest :)

Mac


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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Mac Tichenor (DAL)]
      #391495 - 06/02/14 12:36 AM Attachment (206 downloads)

Quote:

...15 Avantis in various states of disrepair...




I took this picture today, showing a few of them. There are actually six in this hangar. Sorry for the lousy quality...

Mac



Edited by Mac Tichenor (DAL) (06/02/14 12:39 AM)


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Tom Charlton
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Mac Tichenor (DAL)]
      #391520 - 06/02/14 07:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

...15 Avantis in various states of disrepair...



I took this picture today, showing a few of them. There are actually six in this hangar. Sorry for the lousy quality...
Mac





Hi Mac,
Wow! What a scary picture. Wonder if the fleet has been hit with some AD with so many AOG at the same time? Was under the impression the Avanti held a high market value. Wonder if’n there’s some systemic Avanti plague. Other’n be’n Italian<gd&r>

Regards,
Tom Charlton (but they are pretty... even if they do sound strange fly’n over)

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
Top Gun


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Tom Charlton]
      #391539 - 06/02/14 11:58 PM

Hi Tom. In this case, the fleet was hit with the dreaded "too much debt and not enough cash flow" plague, incubated by Avantair.

I guess it's to be expected that working through the mess would take over a year now (they had a bankruptcy auction in January, but apparently the aircraft were not part of it).

Mac


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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #392401 - 06/18/14 10:00 PM Attachment (183 downloads)

Quote:

Got a POH and some training materials on the CII.




Dave - just finishing up at Simcom, these fellas were across the hall doing CJ training, and I couldn't help but notice something.

Just want to make sure you're going into this with your eyes open <G>

Mac



Edited by Mac Tichenor (DAL) (06/18/14 10:01 PM)


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Mac Tichenor (DAL)]
      #392405 - 06/18/14 10:44 PM

Ha! They look bushed.
Just set up a fimiliarization ride so I can see how the II flies before I go on vacation ;).


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #392913 - 06/27/14 02:12 PM

I couldn't find the ramp fee post, but since you are here...Landmark at ROA got us for 325.00 today for a King Air 350. I was in GSO yesterday, they bought Atlantic Aero, so now there is another all Landmark airport.

Makes Signature look good!

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Reams Goodloe
Top Gun


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Loc: Kent, Washington
Re: Citation II info [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #392962 - 06/28/14 01:38 AM

>>325.00 today for a King Air 350.<<

Gotta be a mistake. Surely it is$350 for a 350....
Dollar a point, eh....

- Reams-


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #392965 - 06/28/14 08:14 AM

We didn't have room for fuel, but if we did..We could have bought 110 gallons at the reasonable price of 7.25/gallon!

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #392973 - 06/28/14 10:34 AM

Thanks. I still am thankful for your help on that last year. Very distasteful experience for me. Had a similar case going into Fayetteville, NC and just landed at Lumberton instead.
Going into Asheville in a couple weeks and they did negotiate a bit with me which opened me up to going there instead of Greenville, SC and driving up.

You're bringing up painful thoughts if what I'll deal with in a Citation. I sure don't mind doing business with an FBO, but several hundred dollars to stay overnight on the ramp after buying a meaningful amount of fuel really bugs me. It's more than I pay for a nice hotel at times.


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #393286 - 07/03/14 11:13 PM

Quote:

Very distasteful experience for me. Had a similar case going into Fayetteville, NC and just landed at Lumberton instead.




Since moving to Oregon, we have used Kaiser at OAK when going to the Bay Area. This week we switched to Hayward (APP Jet Center), just six miles down the BART, gas is a dollar less ($2 if you opt for self serve; we didn't) and parking 1/3 the price and first night free. We'll be back soon.

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #393300 - 07/04/14 08:17 AM

Yesterday, first stop was Charlotte. We came 23 minutes from Greensboro so we didn't need fuel. Wilson Air charged 60 dollars for the King Air 200 we were flying. After Landmark I thought that was a deal!

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #393409 - 07/05/14 09:39 PM

Passed my ATP written today. Insurance folks suggest they would like that. When I get typed in the Citation, it will be the ATP ride. Was in there all day, beginning at 8:00 this morning and finished after 8:00 tonight. At least I won't have to compute where the 727 stab settings are for awhile!

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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #393413 - 07/05/14 10:18 PM

Quote:

At least I won't have to compute where the 727 stab settings are




Chuckle, sure glad I don't have to do that! (Green band, anyone?<g>)

best, randy


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #393430 - 07/06/14 10:18 AM

Congratulations....!!!

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #393437 - 07/06/14 03:10 PM

Congratulations! Top of the heap!

As you know, any certificate is just ... an opportunity to spend more money on airplanes.

Edited by Bruce Gorrell [EQY] (07/06/14 03:12 PM)


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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
Top Gun


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #393446 - 07/06/14 05:44 PM

That's great, Dave. Congratulations!
Mac


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #393451 - 07/06/14 07:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

At least I won't have to compute where the 727 stab settings are




Chuckle, sure glad I don't have to do that! (Green band, anyone?<g>)

best, randy






A Green Band for Randy. :-))

the other bill


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #393454 - 07/06/14 08:19 PM

Thanks y'all. Always trying to improve; heaven knows there's lots of room for it :).
Yes Bruce, that sure is my intent!


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #393456 - 07/06/14 08:32 PM

Quote:

A Green Band for Randy. :-))the other bill




Sorta chuckling, tho you've depicted something that I ALWAYS-ALWAYS-ALWAYS took a look at to my right before EVERY takeoff that I made on that stuff, that pedestal shows the "killer items" (my terminology). Spoilers-Stowed, Elevator Trim-Green Band, Fuel Controls-Locked in Run (position detent), Flaps-Set for Takeoff.

best, randy


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Tom Tyson [SUW]
Glider Guider


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #393475 - 07/07/14 08:20 AM Attachment (176 downloads)

Congratulations Dave !

Next time you're at KGSO let me know if you'd like to play with ours "for old time sake" (the school doesn't charge a ramp fee either.)

- TT



--------------------
Tom Tyson-A&P

Pilots without Mechanics are just Pedestrians with fancy watches.

Edited by Tom Tyson [GSO] (07/07/14 08:22 AM)


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Kcid LlirreM
Top Gun


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #393481 - 07/07/14 09:00 AM

With the new regs. I just may re-take my ATP written. The one from 1990 is no longer valid;)

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #394666 - 08/01/14 08:50 PM

Got my SIC sign off in a Citation II (551) today! Bird strike on the way in in my KA but no damage. 300 foot ceilings: as I started to round out, there we hundreds of little birds on my end of the runway that went every which way. One wound up in my front oil cooler. One splatted all over my left flap, messy, but no damage we could see.

It will be hard to put doing 350 knots TAS and climbing and descending at 2.000 FPM out of my mind for awhile :). Indicated 250 in cruise at FL220. Not great for short trips like we did today, but I got to fly three legs, an instrument approach and three total landings. Already thinking about when to go up next.


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #394668 - 08/01/14 11:27 PM

Quote:

I got to fly three legs, an instrument approach and three total landings.



Now you've done it. The King Air will never seem the same again...


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #394669 - 08/01/14 11:27 PM

Very good Dave.

But I assume you are going for the single-pilot type rating?

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


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Re: Citation II info [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #394670 - 08/01/14 11:29 PM

Quote:


Now you've done it. The King Air will never seem the same again...




And it seems like only yesterday he was moving up to the KA from the P-Baron......

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #394671 - 08/01/14 11:30 PM

Quote:

And it seems like only yesterday he was moving up to the KA from the P-Baron......



Yeah... We are/were in the wrong business!


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


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Re: Citation II info [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #394673 - 08/02/14 01:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

And it seems like only yesterday he was moving up to the KA from the P-Baron......



Yeah... We are/were in the wrong business!




Perhaps!

If I have to make any more of these trips I am going to put together a package to convince the boss he needs an aircraft! Then try to convince him he could fly it himself...

It makes a lot of sense if you look at the travel budget....two properties in Colorado, one in Idaho, two in Phoenix. HQ in LA.

The itinerary is a perfect match for a c-90. You could work you way up to it just like Dave did.

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
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Re: Citation II info [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #394674 - 08/02/14 05:54 AM

Quote:

Quote:

And it seems like only yesterday he was moving up to the KA from the P-Baron......



Yeah... We are/were in the wrong business!




I think Dave just needs to adopt me. :)

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #394685 - 08/02/14 11:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I got to fly three legs, an instrument approach and three total landings.



Now you've done it. The King Air will never seem the same again...




Maybe ;). I learned from my Ex, there is a difference between emotional and intellectual acceptance ;). Still thinking the KA is better for shorter flights at this point! But faster, higher and jet are taking hold.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #394686 - 08/02/14 11:20 AM

Quote:

Very good Dave.

But I assume you are going for the single-pilot type rating?




Yes, but not in a hurry. This was a 551 which is SP. The straight II, holds 1,000 pounds more and is the direction I'm leaning. That's more than an hour of additional fuel at cruise or 5 200 pound folks. On this plane, hard to have full fuel and more than pilot. On he straight II, reasonable payload with full fuel. There is also a 1,000 point gross weight mode for the straight II that would be very useful on a longer trip, like to Europe.

Intellectually, it would be better to lease for the ten or twelve longer trips each year and use the KA other times.


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Geoff Sjostrom - Chicago
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #394687 - 08/02/14 11:21 AM

Quote:

Still thinking the KA is better for shorter flights at this point! But faster, higher and jet are taking hold.




Don't worry. In no time at all, you'll be able to talk yourself into the idea that the Citation II is just about the perfect airplane for everything you want to do.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #394688 - 08/02/14 11:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Now you've done it. The King Air will never seem the same again...




And it seems like only yesterday he was moving up to the KA from the P-Baron......




Actually, from flying club to A-36TN; that's what really sucked me into plane ownership!
A-55 for a year with great partners; then the P-baron and you state the rest :)


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #394689 - 08/02/14 11:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

And it seems like only yesterday he was moving up to the KA from the P-Baron......



Yeah... We are/were in the wrong business!




I think Dave just needs to adopt me. :)




Heck, if I did that, you'd be doing all the flying and I'd be tracking maintenance and paying bills :)


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Geoff Sjostrom - Chicago]
      #394690 - 08/02/14 11:27 AM

You know me too well; besides, it'll be difficult to maintain the level of proficiency I like to have in two planes ;)

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Rick Durden
Top Gun


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #394698 - 08/02/14 03:07 PM

Quote:

Intellectually, it would be better to lease for the ten or twelve longer trips each year and use the KA other times.




Just wait Dave...soon you'll be saying the Citation X is for the longer trips each year and use the Citation II the other times...

Warmest regards,
Rick


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Rick Durden]
      #394699 - 08/02/14 04:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Intellectually, it would be better to lease for the ten or twelve longer trips each year and use the KA other times.




Just wait Dave...soon you'll be saying the Citation X is for the longer trips each year and use the Citation II the other times...

Warmest regards,
Rick




You've scared me Rick! Can you help with the bankruptcy filing? ;)

Edited by Dave Siciliano (ADS) (08/02/14 04:15 PM)


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #394700 - 08/02/14 04:30 PM

Quote:

flying club to A-36TN......A-55 for a year.......P-baron and you state the rest :)




Seems'ta me like a song I heard once, "So the story of my life - ".

best, randy


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #394702 - 08/02/14 05:52 PM

Your story would certainly have more variety :)
Mine might make a small mention in your book.


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #394710 - 08/02/14 08:53 PM

Quote:


Mine might make a small mention




Survivors get far more that a small mention in my book!

best, randy


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Terry Carraway
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #394720 - 08/03/14 05:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

And it seems like only yesterday he was moving up to the KA from the P-Baron......



Yeah... We are/were in the wrong business!




I think Dave just needs to adopt me. :)




Heck, if I did that, you'd be doing all the flying and I'd be tracking maintenance and paying bills :)




And what's wrong with tat???? :)

No, I would be a good son and split legs with you. :)

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Mase Taylor
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #394728 - 08/03/14 08:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Mine might make a small mention




Survivors get far more that a small mention in my book!

best, randy




I was thinking that too.

Dave not only has made a great story of being good
(and lucky) in business, but also good (and lucky) in life.
But you know what they say: If you are good, you make your own luck.

I do think he has a life story worthy of writing about though.

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #394752 - 08/04/14 12:20 PM

Quote:


Dave not only has made a great story of




Concur!!!!!!!!

best, randy


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #394757 - 08/04/14 01:31 PM

Reading the story of my life might be a good cure for insomnia; no way one could stay awake through a chapter; hard even for me ;)

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Tom Charlton
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #394777 - 08/04/14 08:03 PM

Quote:

Dave wrote:
no way one could stay awake through a chapter


Hi Dave,
Probably wouldn’t sleep through the one about the jolly green jungle.

Regards,
Tom Charlton

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Tom Charlton]
      #395410 - 08/17/14 01:22 PM

Moved a step closer to getting a Citation II. Flying a trip Thursday to see how the plane does at altitude. Spent yesterday afternoon with some folks that will help me find a plane. We've narrowed our preliminary list to four plane, but are open to another if we see something good. Not in a hurry, but we're going to actively start looking and comparing.

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Tom Charlton
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #395423 - 08/18/14 09:23 AM

Quote:

Dave wrote:
Moved a step closer to getting a Citation II. Flying a trip Thursday to see how the plane does at altitude. Spent yesterday afternoon with some folks that will help me find a plane. We've narrowed our preliminary list to four plane, but are open to another if we see something good. Not in a hurry, but we're going to actively start looking and comparing.


Hi Dave,
I’m enjoying your updates on the Citation II deal. Most advanced aircraft I qualified on was a new C-208B that I conned our company into buying. Was well suited to the mission and a blast to fly.

So… You won’t be showing up at Duluth in that dumpy ole C-90 will’ya? <gd&r>

Regards,
Tom Charlton (who’ll arrive in a dumpy ole motor-home)

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Tom Charlton]
      #395432 - 08/18/14 03:58 PM

Still planning on flying the KA. Chasing Citations, but you know how that goes. And it will take awhile to get the type rating; then, longer to fly single pilot. Heck, I may be retired by then ;)

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #395586 - 08/23/14 07:42 PM Attachment (171 downloads)

Took the Citation IISP to FL390 today. Took about 30 minutes. The last couple thousand feet were at 500 FPM. Mid 30s we were still climbing at 750 FBM. Here's a pic of the Garmin there. Close to .6 mach. Instructor said FL380 and 390 were to get best longer range number at decent airspeed. He said the plane was much less efficient at FL430; airspeed loss for fuel savings wasn't worth it. If one needs a bit more range, to go to the above levels and pull throttles back a bit. Mid 30s was faster but used more fuel.

Edited by Dave Siciliano (ADS) (08/23/14 07:42 PM)


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Mase Taylor
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #395587 - 08/23/14 08:30 PM

Sounds good!

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Tom Charlton
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #395596 - 08/24/14 01:36 PM

Quote:

Dave wrote:
Took the Citation IISP to FL390 today. Took about 30 minutes. The last couple thousand feet were at 500 FPM. Mid 30s we were still climbing at 750 FBM. Here's a pic of the Garmin there. Close to .6 mach. Instructor said FL380 and 390 were to get best longer range number at decent airspeed. He said the plane was much less efficient at FL430; airspeed loss for fuel savings wasn't worth it. If one needs a bit more range, to go to the above levels and pull throttles back a bit. Mid 30s was faster but used more fuel.


Hi Dave,
Hmm… must’ve been this flight? Perhaps FL430 eastbound if the Jetstream is at your six?

Regards,
Tom Charlton (who don’t know nutt’n bout fly’n no stinking jets<g>)

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Tom Charlton]
      #395597 - 08/24/14 02:58 PM

That looks like part of it. We departed Addison on the Texoma DP to Tulsa; direct Fort Smith, then Jonez5 arrival. Plane really loses efficiency above FL390. Ceiling is 430 but one would only use that for unusual weather or winds like you say. Seems 380 and 390 are normally used for best range. Mid 30s for more speed, but one can fly mid 30s and reduce power a bit to get a bit more fuel efficiency. Like in my KA with a 300 ceiling, it can go there, but it doesn't do well.

Edited by Dave Siciliano (ADS) (08/24/14 02:59 PM)


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #395599 - 08/24/14 03:17 PM

So what are your impressions of flying the jet after the KA and Baron?

The hardest part for me when I made the transition was airspeed control as it responded a lot slower than with props.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #395600 - 08/24/14 05:04 PM

Quote:

So what are your impressions of flying the jet after the KA and Baron?

The hardest part for me when I made the transition was airspeed control as it responded a lot slower than with props.




I don't know that I've flown it enough to give a good answer. Still trying to get a good feel for the bird. As to airspeed control, I really haven't had that issue, but have pretty well been flying by numbers and power settings and haven't gotten behind it at all where I needed to recover.
The Citation II was made to compete directly with the KA200; so, it takes off and lands on comparable field lengths. It really surprised me in that regard. I know the KA was much more forgiving with this big props that could act as brakes and where throttle response was very quick.
On takeoff, I pull the throttles back pretty quickly when on a DP or in a pattern to control speed when ceiling is limited. We normally climb at 200 to 220 IAS, so power goes back up when we can climb at that speed.
On arrival what is different is we keep IAS about 240 all the way down until we get in close, then under 200 as we near class B or D. The numbers we kinna look for are 140 before FAF; then, 120 on the way down; Vref on short final. The few times I've landed, three times now, I've been right on Vref on short final and things went very smoothly.

I guess I can't give a good answer until I have a bit more time in it. It does accelerate very quickly; off the ground in about the distance of a KA. I haven't had to slow when going too fast, but it does have speed brakes which could be used in such a case.

In sum, the bird can fly at KA speeds on approach which I'm very comfortable with.

Edited by Dave Siciliano (ADS) (08/24/14 05:24 PM)


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #395601 - 08/24/14 05:29 PM

We haven't use the thrust reversers either. We do deploy them, but land about 85 knots and they have to be off at 50 knots. So, reasonable length runway, we just deploy but don't actually use reverse. Instructor says we don't need them (and we haven'); causes extra maintenance; and it shakes the heck out of the tail. The new VLJs don't have them as you know. I guess if we landed a bit fast or on a shorter runway, they could be used and I'm sure we will at some point.

We landed at Addison Thrusday, was at V ref on short final, pulled throttle to idle about 50 feet, landed and instructor deployed speed brakes. We turned off about half way down the runway.

I do love climbing up to the 30s to get over weather and it's very quiet up there. Departure was very good about getting us up pretty quickly.


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Stephanie Belser
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #395612 - 08/25/14 10:23 AM

Quote:

Anyone have time in a Citation II or know where I can get some perspective and operating cost numbers? I'm looking at some different planes and there's one of these available here. Looks like a LOT of them are on the market, but may be a way to get some initial jet time with a relatively low entry cost. Sorry to bug folks because I'm weighing several options.




1 AMU or less should be fair. They haven't made them in almost 30 years. But they'll be in "collector's item" status eventually, so if you have a barn to stick one in, it might be a good gamble.



Oh, wrong Citation II? <g>

1 AMU or less should be fair.

--------------------
What the hell is an "aluminum falcon"?


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Mase Taylor
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Stephanie Belser]
      #395613 - 08/25/14 12:31 PM Attachment (191 downloads)

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''




--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.

Edited by Mase Taylor (08/25/14 12:33 PM)


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #395654 - 08/26/14 02:49 PM

Well, scratching my head on this again :)
When we flew last week we had to make a short hop from Tyler to Addison; then did the longer flight up to Tulaa, Fort Smith and back, then back to Tyler. Computed the fuel usage and the long leg was as conveyed before, but the short legs, ouch over 1600 pph!
Total 2.5 flight on the hobbs was almost 500 gallons of fuel.
So, I really have to think through usage and how much may be shorter legs. On the long legs at altitude, great; on the short legs down low: ouch!

Meanwhile, met with lender on a subdivision and they may be extra nice if I keep my balance sheet about where it is.


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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #395659 - 08/26/14 04:49 PM

You just need a short haul airplane and a long haul airplane. And maybe a third for medium hauls <g>

Mac


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sreyoB yrraL
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Mac Tichenor (DAL)]
      #395662 - 08/26/14 04:51 PM

Quote:

You just need a short haul airplane and a long haul airplane. And maybe a third for medium hauls <g>



And a tri-jet for hopping oceans...


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Mac Tichenor (DAL)]
      #395666 - 08/26/14 05:06 PM

Quote:

You just need a short haul airplane and a long haul airplane. And maybe a third for medium hauls <g>

Mac




A man of great thoughts you are!


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #395667 - 08/26/14 05:06 PM

Quote:

And a tri-jet for hopping oceans...




Guess I need to do some bigger deals!


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #400373 - 12/06/14 02:42 PM

Completed ground school yesterday in the Citation V. They didn't have a II I could fly, but the V was only a bit more :D . Taking it on a trip next week to get some time in it with an instructor. Will do the actual flight training week after next to get the ATP and typed in the plane. This type applies for 500, 501; 550, 551 and SII Bravo; 560 which is what I'll fly and Ultra. So, lots of different planes one can fly with this type rating.

Best,

Dave


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Gil Buettner [KAUW]
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #400377 - 12/06/14 03:45 PM

That's great, Dave. Last jet I flew in up front was a Citation II on a trip from Iron Mountain to Rochester, NY and back the next day. I got to read the checklist and talk on the radio <g>.

--------------------
-Gil


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #400378 - 12/06/14 04:06 PM

You're right, Dave. That's a very flexible type.

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #400616 - 12/11/14 09:15 AM

Up to Madison Wisconsin and back yesterday. Returned at FL430 :D Pretty neat to see airliners with contrails below us at 8 and 9,000 feet lower. Climb was pretty slow for the last couple thousand feet, but it didn't matter much once above FL410. Trued out about 380 up there. Very quiet and smooth.

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B. Butler (Oregonian)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #400636 - 12/11/14 01:33 PM

Quote:

Trued out about 380 up there. Very quiet and smooth.




The rest of us "plebs" would appreciate it if you would gloat just a little less. <G!>

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Re: Citation II info [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #400639 - 12/11/14 02:26 PM

Bill -- Yeah. The only "380" I do is prefaced by an "I-".

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Tom Charlton
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #400668 - 12/11/14 08:29 PM

Quote:

Dave wrote:
Up to Madison Wisconsin and back yesterday. Returned at FL430 :D Pretty neat to see airliners with contrails below us at 8 and 9,000 feet lower. Climb was pretty slow for the last couple thousand feet, but it didn't matter much once above FL410. Trued out about 380 up there. Very quiet and smooth.


Hi Dave,
Think’n maybe you ought’a bring that thing down here ta Harlingen or Brownsville and let me put my sticky little fingers on the controls. I’ll even drive us ta lunch in the red wrangler. We can go to the local Liby’s. I’m buy’n!<g>

Regards,
Tom Charlton

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Tom Charlton]
      #400671 - 12/11/14 08:53 PM

Quote:

Liby’s




Luby's?

best, randy


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #400681 - 12/11/14 09:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Liby’s




Luby's?

best, randy




I if were Dave I'd hold out for Underwoods. :-)))))

the other bill


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #400683 - 12/11/14 10:00 PM

Quote:

I'd hold out for Underwoods. :-)))))




Concur, great place - until they went T.U. down on Ave. E.

best, randy


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Tom Charlton
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #400689 - 12/11/14 10:39 PM

Liby’s, Luby's… I figer Dave will Lobby for something more fitting of a Citation driver.<g> I’ll scout out the best place I can find herebouts and we’ll have us an RGV mini gig!

Regards,
Tom Charlton (hmm… wonder if’n Dave prefers Tex-Mex or BBQ?)

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Randy Sohn
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Tom Charlton]
      #400720 - 12/12/14 08:31 AM

Quote:

Liby’s, Luby's…… wonder if’n Dave prefers Tex-Mex or BBQ?)




Dunno, always liked Furr's Cafeterias (Roy Furr) also. Try'n to recall now, was Wyatt's down there?

best, randy (I heard that Underwoods got started again in Brownwood?)


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #400721 - 12/12/14 08:58 AM

We had sandwiches at the Jet Room in Madison. I've always enjoyed that for an airport restaurant, but limited hours.

Long ways to go before I'll be headed anywhere without and instructor :). Return trip Sunday. Air work in prep for check ride next week. Family in town this week.
We'll see how it handles next week; this was an up and down trip. ILS into Madison was fun and really slick. Ceilings were around 1,000 with good vis underneath; excellent practice conditions without a real challenge. Made a decent landing there and the instructor made a positive comment about it after telling me how hard this thing is to land smoothly. Of course, I was coached.

At Meacham I kinna rolled it on. Instructor said that may be the best landing I ever make in this plane :)

Course, those are the highlights. Still fumbling around to find things, learning limitations, emergency procedures and figuring out what all the annunciators mean. Long way to go.

But, up high, this thing is really smooth and quiet. Family loved the trip. Limo ride stuff.

Best,

Dave


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Kcid LlirreM
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #400724 - 12/12/14 09:31 AM

I hope they don't serve Libys at Luby's.:)

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Bill Bridges - 9S1
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #400746 - 12/12/14 11:34 AM

Quote:

was Wyatt's down there?






They are/were.

the other bill


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #401553 - 12/25/14 01:49 PM

Don't know if I mentioned, I'm flying a Citation V in training. It's what was available to dry lease. Flew twice last week and did flight maneuvers. Setting up one or two more flights before scheduling the check ride.

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Bill Bridges - 9S1
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #401579 - 12/25/14 07:57 PM

Quote:

Don't know if I mentioned, I'm flying a Citation V in training. It's what was available to dry lease. Flew twice last week and did flight maneuvers. Setting up one or two more flights before scheduling the check ride.




Very good Dave. Please keep us up to date on your new ride. :-))

the other bill


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #404382 - 02/15/15 12:43 PM

Had to put off training while I went to Europe for a couple weeks and had some business to attend to. Trying to schedule a couple tune up flights now before a check ride. Between business, weather, some travel and trying to schedule with contract pilots, it's been a bit of a challenge, but still on track and I'm not pushed to complete by a deadline.

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #407876 - 04/23/15 11:22 AM

Now that I've completed the type rating (and gotten ATP and RVSM cert) Seeing what fits ;)

Citation II I can dry lease in Denton near here. Looking Sunday to see what can be worked out.
Citation V I've been flying I can still dry lease but it's quite a ways away.
Citation II in Fort Worth.

Weighing the alternatives. Leaning toward dry leasing for a bit until I figure out what I really want to do. Leasing looks like the way to start; then, will evaluate and see if I want to purchase.


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Scott Perdue (50F)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 1126
Loc: Texas
Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #407945 - 04/24/15 07:23 AM

Congrats Dave, I know you'll enjoy it.

Maybe now that you've topped out on the distance side, you need to start working on your tailwheel skills now.... and work up to flying the T-6;)

--------------------
Gunny
www.eagleflyingmuseum.org


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