AVSIG: Citation II info wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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AVSIG Discussion Sections >> Cessna

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Citation II info [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #390797 - 05/15/14 08:06 PM

Anything that's contractually possible may be done. What I found the norm is, buyer does a pre-buy inspection. Seller agrees to repair any item that affects airworthiness up to a specified amount. If more, either party may terminate or negotiate amounts that are over.

Best,

Dave


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Steve Stombaugh (IND)
Public Guest


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 1962
Loc: Indiana
Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390817 - 05/16/14 09:28 AM

In this class aircraft, what Dave describes is the norm. I've had buyers want to walk away when the seller wouldn't fix items that were NOT airworthiness related. As with most anything, if one wants 'perfect', they either need to buy new or be willing to pay to have it made that way. That begin said, it is like buying a house - you're almost always buying someone else's problems.

As an operator, I've always tried to keep the aircraft in 'sellable' condition - i.e., such that there would NO squawks on a pre-purchase inspection. I figured you're either going to spend the money now, or when you go to sell it, why not enjoy the fruits of having it in tip-top condition?


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Citation II info [Re: Steve Stombaugh (IND)]
      #390824 - 05/16/14 12:18 PM

There are a couple other issues on the plane I looked at. The biggest is impellers only have 1,000 cycles left even through TBO on the engines are 2,200 hours from now. So, one would have to make longer trips be careful with things that could cause more cycles. Where a part 91 operator may fly an engine past TBO, they cannot pass a stated part limit. So, in a few years, I'd have to find new engines or overhaul these even if they were running strong. Seller had a previous problem, but I didn't do that and won't be treated like all folks conduct themselves in that manner. We heard the seller's side of how the buyer treated him poorly, but when we got the pre-buy inspection, there was numerous issues including corrosion and engine related. So, we just don't have a need to get into a problem plane.

Flying is supposed to be fun, and if it's becoming a chore, time to move on (g).
The KA transition was very easy with the plane being here, me flying it 20 hours before purchasing, my shop, and reasonable seller: maybe I'm spoiled (g). I think I'll find a way to get some Citation time and take my time looking for a CII. One thing this did was convince me this would be a great plane for my mission.

Best,

Dave


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390826 - 05/16/14 12:31 PM

Quote:

maybe I'm spoiled (g)




Au contraire, mi amigo, I'd allow as to how you're just developing some "salt" in this business!

best, randy


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Ralph Hood
Top Gun


Reged: 05/06/04
Posts: 4257
Loc: Erwin, TN
Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390845 - 05/16/14 06:36 PM

Dave S:

<<Anything that's contractually possible may be done. >>

Now that's a great sentence.

Ralph H

--------------------
Ralph Hood
www.ralphhood.com


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Citation II info [Re: Ralph Hood]
      #390848 - 05/16/14 06:56 PM

Thanks Ralph. Coming from you, a real complement! Don't get many of those 'bout my writing.

Best,

Dave


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Tom Charlton
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 2221
Loc: The west coast of Florida
Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #391020 - 05/20/14 03:08 PM

Quote:

Anyone have time in a Citation II or know where I can get some perspective and operating cost numbers? I'm looking at some different planes and there's one of these available here. Looks like a LOT of them are on the market, but may be a way to get some initial jet time with a relatively low entry cost. Sorry to bug folks because I'm weighing several options.

Thanks,

Best,

Dave



Hi Dave,
Cessna Citation II would be an interesting evolution for you. Have you looked at the Piaggio Avanti? One sexy look’n airplane. Looks like cruise speeds similar to the C-II. Don’t know how it compares otherwise. Field requirements, useful load, purchase price, cost of operation etc.

Regards,
Tom Charlton

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Citation II info [Re: Tom Charlton]
      #391021 - 05/20/14 03:30 PM

Tom: A good friend related to me: If you want sexy, buy Italian; if you want dependable, buy German (g). That plane has a lot of issues and a fairly high purchase price. Buyer's market for Citations right now.

Best,

Dave


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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
Top Gun


Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 1857
Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #391035 - 05/20/14 11:12 PM

Dave -

In the hangar at DAL that used to house my plane, and in the three adjoining hangars, sit 15 Avantis in various states of disrepair - engines and control surfaces off the wing, lots of cobwebs. These are Avanti I models that were operated by the now-bankrupt Avantair. It is a sad sight. I understand that there are two or three other airports around the country hosting similar proportions of the fleet.

Avantair was a fractional ownership operation that strived to keep the identities of individual share owners secret from each other. Some enterprising owners set up a website that facilitated the task of identifying the 2 - 16 owners that owned each plane. Some of those owners got together and tried to retrieve their planes, leading to the hangar doors being screwed closed. That security measure has been relaxed a bit in the last few months, and I see mechanics working on the planes now, but they still seem a long way from being airworthy.

It's interesting to see the PT6a-66D engines off the wings and on the stands. The stacks are on backwards! And I can't figure out how they separate ice from the intake air - there doesn't seem to be a place to interpose what you KA drivers call ice vanes.

I remember the Operation Raincheck at ZFW (that you organized) where AVSIG's-own Scott Voight, commented what a screamer the Avanti was, outperforming many light jets.

Best,
Mac


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Citation II info [Re: Mac Tichenor (DAL)]
      #391260 - 05/27/14 09:59 AM

Quote:

In the hangar at DAL that used to house my plane, and in the three adjoining hangars, sit .....sad sight




Mac, interesting to see, I can't recall what Beech called them (just occurred to me now as I type, Starship, correct Rickoshay?) but several years go when I parked the B-29 FIFI at the Wichita airport they placed me in the front of a hangar. I told them I didn't want to leave it there long since it was in front of a hangar door and that was not my thing! They assured me that a few of those doors were not needing to be opened so relax, full of recalled Starships.

best, randy


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