AVSIG: Citation II info wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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AVSIG Discussion Sections >> Cessna

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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390726 - 05/14/14 04:02 AM

Quote:

I wondered about real world speeds and altitude. Service ceiling is FL430, but takes a long time to get up there. Slower than a lot of traffic in the low 30s, so where do these really fly? What is normal cruise there?
Best,

Dave




I bet some of our ATC veterans can tell ya bout this...

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390727 - 05/14/14 10:44 AM

Dave,

I'm flying with a guy today who operates a II, I'll pick his brain for real world. What I remember from years ago is an advertised 380kts, was really about 360kts.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Citation II info [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #390729 - 05/14/14 12:21 PM

Thanks Jeff. I understand the phase five (gear) is the expensive inspection which is every three years.

Best,

Dave


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390733 - 05/14/14 03:39 PM

The Sierra Industries web site compares this and some other planes to their Sierra conversion planes.
They show:
Max cruise 385
Normal cruise 377
LR cruise 321
Two engine climb 3370fpm; single 1057
Ceiling 43,000 Climb to altitude 45 minutes; this is one reason I wonder where these normally cruise.
Max range is 1594 with about 600 pounds payload plus crew which looks great. 1,220 with all seats full which also works.
Takeoff SL is 2,990; ISA plus 20 at 5,000 feet is 6.870 which would certainly limit higher elevation air fields when hot.
Looks like a lot of baggage ares.

Anyway, seems to make sense for me. There are a bunch of these on the market which, of course, affects value. But it also allows one to get in pretty reasonably. This has a bit better than mid time engines, nice cabin and paint, just old (original) avionics which I'd need to upgrade. The way I'm looking at the numbers, if I flew it five years and sold for salvage value at the end, it's reasonable for me.

http://www.sijet.com/download/Sijet_2012_Cit550-551.pdf?inline

Best,

Dave


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Frank Van Haste [VKX]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 2700
Loc: Northern VA
Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390736 - 05/14/14 04:04 PM

Dave, Hal Shevers (of Sporty's note) has been flying a C-II for a long time. I recall him saying it was a very straightforward airplane to fly.

Frank


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Tom Tyson [SUW]
Glider Guider


Reged: 05/27/04
Posts: 4691
Loc: KSUW
Re: Citation II info (Calling Al Wolpert) [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390737 - 05/14/14 04:28 PM

Dave,

This may be a brain fart, but doesn't (didn't) Al Wolpert, your co-presenter at ROAgig '12, fly a C-II?

Anyone here know how to get in touch will Al these days?

- TT

--------------------
Tom Tyson-A&P

Pilots without Mechanics are just Pedestrians with fancy watches.

Edited by Tom Tyson [GSO] (05/14/14 04:38 PM)


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 1862
Citation II info (Calling Al Wolpert) [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #390738 - 05/14/14 05:35 PM

Actually Allen flies a CJ2 (C525), not exactly the same as the Citation II
(C550).


Not sure what the differences are though.

Andy


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Frank Van Haste [VKX]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 2700
Loc: Northern VA
Re: Citation II info (Calling Al Wolpert) [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #390739 - 05/14/14 05:47 PM

TT, if my memory is working, Allen flies a CJ2, not a C-II. I don't have an email address...could ping him on twitter, tho', he's @ajwolpert.

FVH


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Citation II info (Calling Al Wolpert) [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #390749 - 05/14/14 07:46 PM

Thanks guys! I've chatted with the pilot flying the plane now (corporate plane) and the fella that runs my shop that has some CII time. Also have pics and an agreed to price which is attractive to me. Seems the plane just went through a pre-buy and the buyer went to a Hawker. Left the plane far away and seller had to get it back. They lowered price a bit to move it along and get along with their business (g). My guy said he saw 350 to 360 in the one he flew in the Mid 30 altitudes. This has a gross weight increase and heavier gear and axles. Plane just went through a phase I to V on pre-buy; so, there may be a way to avoid another Phase V for three years. Nice interior and decent paint from pics. We'll try to view the plane ASAP but want to get a contract agreed to first. We'll want to get WAAS Garmins in here if we proceed.

Best,

Dave


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Rick Durden
Top Gun


Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 4366
Re: Citation II info [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #390769 - 05/15/14 04:42 AM

Dave,

Can only encourage you. My Citation time is all in the 501 and 500, baby brothers to the 550. From what I recall, your speeds are about right - 370, 380 knots in cruise. And, I heard all the Slowtation jokes, but I went into the Citation from 20-series Lears where I considered any runway less than 5,000 feet long to be a short field. The Citation goes where early Lears fear to tread and when it comes down to it for normal mission profiles, 370 knots does very, very well - the Lear will be rolling out on landing as you pass the FAF inbound.

And, for goo system design, I just recall that when I opened up the electrical system diagram on the Citation at FlightSafety my comment was "where's the rest of it?" It turned out to be so much simpler and more reliable than the Lear it just blew me away.

There are a lot of mods for the II - and technology has provided engines that burn a lot less fuel, but those engines cost so much more that it may be cheaper to buy the fuel. I think that's why the II just keeps going and going and going...

For a while, moving into the Citation after the Lear, my reaction was to not feel macho and sort of slink off into the corner to hide because the airplane was so incredibly easy to fly. My experience was that it had systems that had been designed by engineers who understood human factors - and it didn't sit on the ramp scheming of ways to kill me. (I've stalled Citations, it's no big deal - I am unwilling to stall a 20 series Lear.) I came to love flying the Citation I and, my recollection was at the time on looking at the numbers, the Citation II was an even better airplane.

What a lot of people forget is that Cessna has been building pilot-friendly jets since 1954. The 500 was a (how I hat this phrase) "game changer" for GA jets; the I fixed a lot of the 500's shortcomings and the II was wonderful. After that, other than the swept wing birds, I think it's all been built on tweaking the II. If I were in a position to own and fly a II, I think I'd jump at it.

What bugs me is that I don't recall at what altitude I flew the I when going places. I clearly recall always running the Lear 23 and 24B at FL 410 for the first hour and then FL450 for the rest of the trip, but I just can't remember where the I was best. (I hate this getting old and forgetful stuff.)

Warmest regards,
Rick


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