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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented...
      #301644 - 10/21/10 07:28 PM

Piper Aircraft has announced some modifications to the Piperjet that will make it more attractive to the Business market, as opposed to the owner-flown market (they hope). For one thing, it will be easier to change to two rear-mounted engines on any follow-on models.....

STORY

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Joe Budge (W29)
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Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 7423
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented... [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #302133 - 10/27/10 11:59 PM

Quote:

Piper heavily revamps PiperJet
Goal is to attract business customers





Guess they weren't getting the other kind of customers...

Regards,
Joe


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented... [Re: Joe Budge (W29)]
      #302156 - 10/28/10 11:40 AM

For some reason, I'm just having a bit of trouble with the single engine jet <g>.

If one is to go high, far and fast, they'd traverse a lot of adverse terrain, take off and land in more congested areas and deal with more weather. I would think redundancy would be more important. The commercial folks sure seem to lean toward it.

Another reason the $1MM VLJ will be difficult to deliver (in case that issue isn't settled in everyone's mind.) Even $2MM seems open to question.

Best,

Dave

Edited by Dave Siciliano (ADS) (10/28/10 12:36 PM)


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Sean Franklin
Top Gun


Reged: 08/15/04
Posts: 2566
Loc: Eureka Springs, Arkansas
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented... [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #302276 - 10/29/10 05:15 PM

Quote:

For some reason, I'm just having a bit of trouble with the single engine jet <g>



Obviously 2 engines are better than one in terms of redundancy, but looking just at engine reliability a single turbine gives you MUCH lower chance of failure than a single engine failure in your Baron.

There is a lot to like about a single-engine turbine (jet or prop). Greatly improved reliability over piston twins, good power and speed, but reasonable (almost piston-like) fuel burns. A twin jet is going to be expensive to run, even a Mustang.

The Meridian, TBM, PC-12, Caravan crowd have been enjoying good reliability and economy for a long time. The Vision and PiperJet I think have a chance to be good contenders.

--------------------
Eureka Springs, Arkansas


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Mick Ruthven
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 1320
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented... [Re: Sean Franklin]
      #302329 - 10/30/10 09:58 AM

But with a way different result in the event of a failure.

Quote:

looking just at engine reliability a single turbine gives you MUCH lower chance of failure than a single engine failure in your Baron.




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Sean Franklin
Top Gun


Reged: 08/15/04
Posts: 2566
Loc: Eureka Springs, Arkansas
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented... [Re: Mick Ruthven]
      #302341 - 10/30/10 11:08 AM

Quote:

But with a way different result in the event of a failure.

Quote:

looking just at engine reliability a single turbine gives you MUCH lower chance of failure than a single engine failure in your Baron.






Sure, and each person has to decide for themselves which is better. Good chance of a partial (but still potentially dangerous) failure, or slim chance of a total failure. Both options are sort of in the same price range, i.e. if anyone produced a pressurized twin piston these days it would be in the price range of a pressurized turbine single.

The fact that no one makes a pressurized twin piston any more, and there are several pressurized turbine singles, tells you what most buyers have decided is the lower risk.

--------------------
Eureka Springs, Arkansas


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented... [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #302350 - 10/30/10 12:32 PM

Quote:

For some reason, I'm just having a bit of trouble with the single engine jet <g>.

If one is to go high, far and fast, they'd traverse a lot of adverse terrain, take off and land in more congested areas and deal with more weather. I would think redundancy would be more important. The commercial folks sure seem to lean toward it.

Another reason the $1MM VLJ will be difficult to deliver (in case that issue isn't settled in everyone's mind.) Even $2MM seems open to question.

Best,

Dave





THIS MACHINE seems to accomplish it's mission with only one engine.

Of course, it has certain safety systems you don't usually see - parachute, ejection seat...

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented... [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #302379 - 10/30/10 05:14 PM

Sean: Great comments; I'm still thinking through all of this. If Eclipse had delivered what was promised, I'd have been on board. Obviously, that didn't work. Even if the plane had been delivered, the only baggage room was in the cabin and the build quality didn't seem to match Beech standards.

Looking through a lot of operating cost data. One can just throw out a lot of options if cost isn't considered. TBM certainly has lower operating cost but last I looked (and according to Aviation Week August edition) was $1,500,000 for a 2002 model. Mission cost for a 1,000 mile trip was $1.75. Eclipse was $1.79. So pretty reasonable in that regard. A King Air C90A was $3.08 and cost $1,000,000 for a 92. The TBM and Eclipse were about 45 minutes faster on a trip than the King Air.

Folks throw around the PC-12 all the time when discussing these other birds. Same article has one for $3,000,000 for an '08. 1,000 mile trip cost was $2.20; so, that is reasonable but entry cost is much higher as is insurance for the higher hull value.

I keep looking at these and going back and forth. TBM sounds interesting for me, but I still wonder about the foreign manufacturer; currency translation affect and support. King Air certainly stands out there.

Sounds like Cessna sees the light for a six seat pressurized turbine and Beech is rumored to be on that track.

Best,

Dave


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented... [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #302381 - 10/30/10 05:19 PM

Mase: I hate to repeat myself, but here at my FBO last year, several turbines came in with one shut down. Non event because they had two.

I live in a very congested area; no good and not many other options if one lost one in a single on approach or departure: parking lots; highways and RR tracks.

Departing to the south, engine loss at 400 feet in a single poses a dilemma: sanitary treatment facility or ten degrees left to the Comedy Club <g>

Best,

Dave


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treploW nellA
AVSIG Member


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 980
Loc: NNJ(me)/DXR(plane)
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented... [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #302496 - 10/31/10 08:00 PM

Quote:

TBM sounds interesting for me, but I still wonder about the foreign manufacturer; currency translation affect and support.




The TBM Owners and Pilots Association can tell you all you need to know about those issues.

--------------------
Allen


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