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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Restart Procedure/Bonanza [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #356688 - 11/19/12 08:16 PM

Yeahbut. That was intentional. The original question had me thinking "drop
the airplane to fly the fuel system" -- not a pretty picture at 1000 AGL.

I've had three engine emergencies in singles, all below 1500 AGL. In two
cases, there were two qualified pilots. In each of those, I was the
right-seater and took over the problem solving and the radio, leaving the
left seater nothing to do but fly the airplane. That worked very well each
time.

One of those was similar to Scott's post -- lost engine during climbout from
a missed practice approach, but the prop was windmilling. Restoring fuel
flow straightened it out instantly without doing anything else.

The one engine failure I had as the only pilot was clearly hopeless with
regard to the engine (prop stopped from T/O power with a loud clank, oil all
over), so it was a straightforward glider flight.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Restart Procedure/Bonanza [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #356689 - 11/19/12 08:26 PM

Quote:

That was intentional. The original question




Couldn't agree with you more! Like I'd said earlier, NO experience with those big engined 35s, only the Ms and earlier.

And I always get POed when I read an accident report/see a case of someone getting on the radio (like THAT'D get some help to save'em) instead of 1. "FLY THE MACHINE!"

Come to think of it, just got one or two off my quotes list here:

●If the engine quits, fly it to the ground, don't fall it to the ground! (Jim Orton)

●Don't drop the aircraft in order to fly the microphone! (Paul Stebelton)

best, randy


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Restart Procedure/Bonanza [Re: Stephanie Belser]
      #356696 - 11/19/12 09:40 PM

Thanks, all....if conditions permitted (i.e., landing site picked, airspeed
established and altitude sufficient), I guess I'd prime and then try the
starter. Otherwise, the landing's obviously the primary concern.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Restart Procedure/Bonanza [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #356758 - 11/21/12 11:46 AM

Absolutely.

But the original question was about the RESTART. Not how to handle the entire situation. :)

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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J. Carretero
AVSIG Member


Reged: 02/12/06
Posts: 896
Loc: Spain
Re: Restart Procedure/Bonanza [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #359979 - 01/09/13 11:46 AM

Yup. Iīd do almost the same thing.

Assuming youīre 100% sure it was one empty fuel tank, oneīs flying between possible landing spots and thereīs nothing else to do on the way down... Spicing it up by trying to restart that way could be a good pastime. The only other item Iīd try remembering in the list would be banging my head and calling myself names.

Ho-Zay

EDIT: And itīs only now that I realize the conversation belongs to the last era.

--------------------
"If any of this gets me in trouble, just remember--I lie a lot", Ralph Hood

Edited by J. Carretero (01/09/13 11:48 AM)


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Walter Atkinson
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 579
Loc: Vail, Colorado
Re: Restart Procedure/Bonanza [Re: J. Carretero]
      #370665 - 06/12/13 06:17 AM

1) The prop will NOT stop with fuel exhaustion.

2) If the prop has stopped, the engine is seized or the pilot has pulled the nose up beyond the stall (a stupid pilot trick if I ever heard one at 1000 feet AGL and the idiot will be immediately assessed ten demerits to be awarded at his funeral.)

3) If #1 exists, simply switch tanks and do NOTHING else. If you hit the boost pump or other actions you will likely flood it and it may not restart.

4) If #2 exists, you have NO need to hunt for fuel--reverse the stupid pilot trick (which is UNLIKELY at 1000 AGL) and/or LAND into the softest spot readily available.

All of that said, IF the prop has stopped in cruise with fuel exhaustion (which it won't) simply lower the nose and it will begin turning again. DO NOTHING but switch to a tank with fuel. If it was running when the fuel ran out, it will run again when the fuel is returned.

Switching tanks, going full rich, and hitting the boost pump as the POH recommends will almost certainly result in a flooded condition and no restart. <head-shaking-mode>

--------------------
Walter Atkinson
It's not the miles you've traveled; it's the stops you've made.


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J. Carretero
AVSIG Member


Reged: 02/12/06
Posts: 896
Loc: Spain
Re: Restart Procedure/Bonanza [Re: Walter Atkinson]
      #376996 - 09/14/13 12:31 AM

True all that. Still:

The fuel starvation example was simply that, an example of an engine failure not due to any guts of the engine flying off the crankcase. That is: the engine quit, but itīs still a perfectly functional one IF you find/know the external reason that made it quit and can fix it now (fuel, switching off the magnetos with your knee, or pick any other choice).

Then, I had completely forgotten about the stopped prop. That would certainly invalidate the possibility of it being one of those examples.

The Continental 520's Iīve flown always liked some pump to restart after maybe one minute off. So, if #1 existed, and I knew it was the fuel, *I* would have used some pump to make things happen now. Thinking of it for a second, first thing you'd have to do would be switching to the correct tank, with the prop turning and already sucking from there before you had time to reach the pump. If it had to start, it should have by that time. I could very well be completely wrong in all that.

If #1 existed and it was not the fuel, I wouldnīt, since it'd had been sucking all the time and it could be flooded already.

Then, I believe using some pump, selecting another tank or turning the magnetos on is far from "stupid pilot tricks". Itīs simply trying to restart. 1000 ft give you some time to spare, after getting ready for a forced landing and once youīre flying for it. Using some of that time trying to fix what was wrong, or even trying to restore some partial power if it was a bigger problem, is not a trick, much less stupid, but in my humble opinion, the sensible choice.

EDIT: translated from awful gibberish to... well, to another kind of Spanglish gibberish, I suppose <g>

EDIT II: oh yeah, the POH. One of my home bases is above 7000ft and I work "in the hills" from there, so those engines have hardly ever seen full mixture. POH's should always be taken with a pound of salt.

--------------------
"If any of this gets me in trouble, just remember--I lie a lot", Ralph Hood

Edited by J. Carretero (09/14/13 01:27 AM)


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J. Carretero
AVSIG Member


Reged: 02/12/06
Posts: 896
Loc: Spain
Re: Restart Procedure/Bonanza [Re: J. Carretero]
      #377505 - 09/22/13 02:00 PM

Thinking of it again, I had a TSIO-520 fail on take off very recently, although it wasnīt in the nose of a Bonanza, but a Cessna Ag-Husky. Course of events since checking for traffic before TO:

- Added power slowly, to get to the max for that DA (39'') while readjusting prop (otherwise it'd go to one million rpm) and mixture (otherwise it'd think it was feeding the Concorde), while letting it start running.

- Noticed the manifold wasnīt quite climbing to 39'', but being where it was... operation normal. Still, better than the two previous years, when it would barely go beyond the green (very bad need to pay a mortgage).

- Everything else looks good. Sound is good. Acceleration is good. Up it goes.

- Somewhere below 200 ft, cause thatīs about the top the ferry altitude, the noise goes away, together with some speed and a couple quick bangs serve as drums.

- Nose down and pointing to the previously selected side road.

- Off goes most of the load, mainly to get lighter, but by chance it also helps advise the incoming traffic that it's not a good idea landing opposite and underneath now. A crop dusting plane has that kind of advantage, while you canīt kick your passengers out of the Bonanza that easily.

- Canīt have much left inside, so leave the handle alone and let it drain like that, cause the fully, forced, opened door is a fantastic brake, that also tries making your nose point to the stars. The road is there and Iīm gonna make it with time/altitude to spare. Not that bad a brake this way, so no urge to pull it for a complete closure. Also, I can use my hand in something else, and even open the thing again and use it as air brake if I need to.

- So here we are, in the air and not much else to do than wait, of course after dedicating a sentimental thought to your mechanic's ancestors. Not that you can read a book, but still...

- Are the mags alright? lets check. They are on, and switching to one or the other makes no difference.

- Mixture? Itīs where itīs supposed to be. If something magical happened to the cable and it went opposite to where it goes when it breaks (happened next day, BTW), I donīt know the spell to cure it, so next thing.

- Throttle? Lets see what happens moving it around. Happened that the darn thing fired again, although at very much idle. Compared to nothing... idle is what one normally uses for most intentional landings, this power is about that, so it is great!

- Close that emergency drop gate.

- In all joy, find now the spot in the road, if thereīs such a spot at all and it's within reach, that you can use to park the plane, not making a mess of the scarce traffic and not having to push a lot later on (had something very similar happen last year, just more smoky, and in minutes I had a trailer behind, driver asking if it was going to take long). The spot does exist and I think I can get there.

- Pull on the harness to make sure it is still in tourniquet mode.

- Slowly to full flap. Softly touch in two points (itīs the dirt road I use to get to the strip, so I know itīs reasonably flat and have used much worse to work), let it run, let it get closer to that bit with the flat and apparently hard shoulder... The tail finally goes down, speed goes down and the plane is by that part of the road. Kick the rudder and, while not letting it go out yet, at least leave the wheel pointing in the right direction.

- Off the harness, open the doors, check thereīs no paddle of fuel around, shut everything down, vacate, smell while walking away and looking, check that the side of the road is really alright and push it in there.

Happened to be a one mile long, one thousand years old, intake pipe, that had collapsed, shrank and choked when trying to suck at full. Maybe opening the alternate air would have been better to recover more power, but didnīt even try. For once, the handle had been fixed in the "closed" position since 1975 and my previous attempts at moving it on the ground, out of pure boredom, had been unfruitful, but more importantly, by that time I was *really* close to landing softly on a perfectly fine road. Had it been a mined camp full of vertical stone walls, I'd have probably tried and succeeded in pulling that handle out, together with the cable, panel and the whole engine.

So no, I didnīt use the pump in that instance. Still, there was time to try a few things, among them, the one that helped getting a somehow different landing. Could still have made a fine landing without that little power, but it helped making it smoother and, more importantly, helped spirits! <g>

The main question is, I suppose: specially if, or when, you are flying low on a SEP, you have to know where you are going to land when the engine quits. Far from being a constant estate of intense stress, it can be just the contrary in a critical moment. It becomes a natural part of your flying, that you donīt even notice, helps you saving those first precious seconds, keeps you from having to choose the second-to-best place because the best one was within range a second ago, takes away a lot of the uncertainty stress in the worst possible moment... It can end up being not much more than a landing, with a thought of "dang, why did I put the expensive shoes on today? And I thought landing fees in my airport were expensive. Do I have the # of my mechanic here?".

After all, quite a few of one's circuits in a piston single start under 1000ft, donīt do they? and you still do a lot of stuff and whistling on your way down. The strip now is not a 10,000ft long asphalt airport, there's probably not a bar there, your pocket is going to hurt and the engine is developing zero power, not idle, alright, but you had seen the place before from above, have pictured yourself landing there, have made some landings before i your lifetime (had one planned for that flight, in fact, just not exactly there) and thereīs nothing else you can do in those seconds, that can become eternal, than try one or two things to make it softer or even avoid it altogether, if it was something simple and easily fixable.

When low, always keep an eye in the less bad spot and see yourself landing there. At the very least, it's yet another entertaining thing to do when flying. Then you have time; and from 1000 ft, an awful eternity.

Salud!
Jose

PS: I could have saved telling the part where I chose a spot and parked there, cause it made me and the text look as it made us look, but the idea was illustrating the sort of thoughts you have time to have, and even put into practice, when you are low in a piston, but know you are low in a piston (and in this case, the area permits). Also, yes, that part was the virtual sunglasses and huge watch <g>

--------------------
"If any of this gets me in trouble, just remember--I lie a lot", Ralph Hood


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J. Carretero
AVSIG Member


Reged: 02/12/06
Posts: 896
Loc: Spain
Re: Restart Procedure/Bonanza [Re: J. Carretero]
      #377507 - 09/22/13 02:23 PM

One more, by the same tiresome writer.

To the original question:

I may make a big smoking hole, barely having flown any time on a Bonanza, so this should be taken as a mental exercise by someone totally inexperienced in the model.

But I would point the nose to Earth's core while going to the least bad spot, change the tank, prime for a second to help it get there now and try a restart. I feel one doesnīt have much time left to gain enough speed to get the propeller moving, then let it make the job. If that fails, knowing, as the question let us know, that it was an empty tank, there's nothing left to do but land, but at least with some speed now.

Cheers,
Jose "the smoking hole"

--------------------
"If any of this gets me in trouble, just remember--I lie a lot", Ralph Hood


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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
Top Gun


Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 1857
Re: Restart Procedure/Bonanza [Re: J. Carretero]
      #377549 - 09/23/13 11:21 AM

Great post.

Mac


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