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Tom Gresham (HDC)
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Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 1769
Loc: Louisiana
Thinking about a P-Baron
      #248238 - 05/21/09 07:13 AM

The nature of the flights I take has changed a bit, and I have found myself thinking it's time to go back to a twin. Along with that, pressurization and air conditioning have bubbled to the top of my want list.

So, I'm looking.

The problems or issues with the 400 series Cessnas worry me. The Duke scares me with the tales of expenses.

I'd prefer cabin class, but about 70% of my flights are just me and lots of stuff.

All that leads me to the 58P, the pressurized Baron.

Any thoughts on this model, suggestions or warnings, would be appreciated. The best deal would be a trade, and there are a couple of planes out there advertised as such.

Thanks.


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Scott Perdue (50F)
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #248637 - 05/24/09 07:50 AM

Tom-

Dave Siciliano has a P-Baron and loves it... do you have his email? He hangars at Addison.

gunny

--------------------
Gunny
www.eagleflyingmuseum.org


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Dan Barclay [ORG]
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Scott Perdue (50F)]
      #248742 - 05/25/09 12:35 AM

Quote:

Tom-

Dave Siciliano has a P-Baron and loves it... do you have his email? He hangars at Addison.




Dave has relatives near here so came by one day a while back and gave me a ride. Nice airplane. It's not exactly for short field work<g> but would be great for the long range flying Tom is constantly doing.

He'll be borrowing an A36 for the photo shoots though<g>.

Dan


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Tom Gresham (HDC)
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Dan Barclay [ORG]]
      #248753 - 05/25/09 08:38 AM

Probably no photo shoots in the future.

If there are, I'm going to get the network to buy the plane and not provide it for them as I did last time. <g>

Gunny, Dave gave me a ride in his. Short ride, and we didn't get above about 3,000 feet. Still, very nice plane.

Of course, the value of my Bonanza has gone down a ton in the last two years. Then again, so has the value of Barons.

I have one offer to take my plane in trade on a nice P-Baron if I toss in $60K. I'm reluctant to do that, but that may be where the market is. I'm just having trouble getting my head around that.

Oh well. Off to Minnesota this morning in the Bonanza!


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #248757 - 05/25/09 08:50 AM

Let me know if there's anything I can do Tom. You're sure welcome to stop by again and get more time in my plane if that would help you.

When I looked, many had different times on the engines, hadn't been run they way we run ours (we're 200 hours over TBO now), had major damage in the past or had avionics that would have to be updated. Look for reasonably low AF times as there is a 10,000 hour limitation; as they cross 5,000 it really affects value. Don't know what to say on cylinders with the Milliniums in flux or gone, but you can pretty well plan on topping a plane at 1,000 hours or less.

I know you're close to the TAT folks; that's a big help. Getting a plane that was well maintained, run properly, and had good avionics has made a real difference to us.

Let me know if I can help.

Best,

Dave


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Kcid LlirreM
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #248762 - 05/25/09 09:26 AM

Quote:



Oh well. Off to Minnesota this morning in the Bonanza!




Will you be seeing Randy? We need an eye witness report from up there.

Dick


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Andrew Niemyer -KDLH
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #249036 - 05/26/09 08:56 PM

Tom:
You coming to Duluth? Dinner's on me!

Best,
Andy


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Gil Buettner [KAUW]
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Andrew Niemyer -KDLH]
      #249043 - 05/26/09 09:31 PM

Be sure to take him to the Kitch. Sit outside tomorrow night and watch the sailboat races. Damn! I miss Duluth.

--------------------
-Gil


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treploW nellA
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #249058 - 05/26/09 11:34 PM

You really should take a careful look at a Cessna 414 or 421. The possibility of Cessna SIDs has become a non-issue for PT91. The P-Baron is nice but the C421 is the next best travailing machine to a turboprop.

Come over to the Cessna Pilots Association forum and talk with people who own then to get the straight scoop.

--------------------
Allen


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Jerry Kurata [KLVK]
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #249225 - 05/28/09 10:40 AM

When I was looking at pressurized twins I tried a P baron. They handle very nicely, but was a bit small. And people in the back have a hard time moving forward and visa verse. We also looked at a 400 series but the 414 was too slow and the 421 engines scared me. So we ended up with the 340A. It turned out to be a good choice. It was big enough to carry the family of 4, but still economical (Can you say that about any twin) to justify flights with one or two.

Now matter what you do one thing I can tell you is once you go pressurized it is hard to back.

Also, you might look into the training requirements for insurance. These days most pressurized and almost all cabin class planes require annual sim training.




Edited by Jerry Kurata [KLVK] (05/28/09 10:44 AM)


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Tom Gresham (HDC)
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jerry Kurata [KLVK]]
      #249468 - 05/30/09 08:44 AM

Well, I'm back from Minnesota. Was in St. Cloud for several days.

I'm not sure about the SID on Cessnas. What's an SID?

The wing spar issue on twin Cessnas is something I've heard about, but I don't know any details. A 421 would be great. May be more than I need, though. The 340 could be the answer, if it will haul all the stuff I carry.

Pat would like more room than the Bonanza, which means more than the Baron, too.

At gas prices go back up, maybe the twin market will improve even more for buyers.


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #249475 - 05/30/09 10:17 AM

Tom,

I flew a Cessna 414 (325hp Ram) through at least one set of engines. Without RAM the useful is not great. I liked it a lot, usually at FL210 at 205 kts, can't recall the fuel flow, 31gph?.
In a 340 I couldn't get the seat down far enough that my headset didn't hit the overhead.
I like the 421 for it's quieter low pitch "thrum". Better useful..little better speed.

I flew 425 #005 back in 1982...I always thought if I hit the lottery that it would be my personal transport.

I didn't pay for maintaining any of them, no help there.

I was in Gainesville, GA the other day. In one hangar was a 425 that was disemboweled...gutted, engines and gear off, tail removed..It was the new SID inspection. Estimated at 380,000 for the job. Does this eventually affect all the 400's?

http://twin.cessna.org/reference/cessna_402sid_paper.pdf

I found this report on the 414s

http://tinyurl.com/lmcm25

Side note on the 414 I flew. When I took it in for new boots, they found cracks in the leading edge skin of the horizontal stab, after removing the skin, found nearly every nose rib cracked...really curious.(I think it had about 5500 hours TT)

Dave may argue this, but I felt comfortable on a cool day to fly the 414 in and out of 3500 feet. The P Baron, I would like at least 4000...

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #249478 - 05/30/09 10:30 AM

Quote:

Dave may argue this, but I felt comfortable on a cool day to fly the 414 in and out of 3500 feet. The P Baron, I would like at least 4000...




Jeff: I don't think you'll finding me disagreeing with you much. I do like 4,000 in the P. I will do less if there is plenty of flat overrun, but obstacles at the end and near gross, 4,000 is where I try to be.

'Course, if everything goes right, shorter works <g>

Did a zero thrust engine loss last week in refresher training. Two of us and less than full fuel: instructor reduced power at 300 feet just at blue line. While the plane did climb, it was taking all it had and CHTs got up over 400 on the good engine. We were also turning to stay in the pattern; so, I'm sure it would have done better straight. Just have to respect these things or they can really get you, as you know.

The larger Cessnas are nicer for room, noise and comfort. The Baron handles better and one can make the case for better craftsmanship. I loved the stair entry on the Cessna, but thought it really handled like a truck compared to the Baron. All a matter of what one needs and likes. They certainly each have their place. For me, it's mostly one or two of us and I prefer the Beechcraft. If I had to carry more and folks had any issues with loading or unloading, I'd go to the Cessna.

When my Dad was older and having trouble getting around, the Cessna would have been much better because he insisted on riding up front; right seat.

Best,

Dave


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #249498 - 05/30/09 11:36 AM

Quote:

compared to the Baron




You got that right...until you get above the 90 series King Airs they are all "Nimble"...but surprisingly stable instrument platforms. Even down to the Deb, one of my first long IFR trips (maybe 1968 or so) was a Debonair from Miami to the just opened Stewart...(just googled, had to be 1970).

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Jerry Kurata [KLVK]
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #249530 - 05/30/09 02:48 PM

Quote:

Well, I'm back from Minnesota. Was in St. Cloud for several days.

I'm not sure about the SID on Cessnas. What's an SID?

The wing spar issue on twin Cessnas is something I've heard about, but I don't know any details. A 421 would be great. May be more than I need, though. The 340 could be the answer, if it will haul all the stuff I carry.





What sort of load do you need to carry?

Mine had a Ram VI conversion and Robinson STOL conversion. That gave me 335 HP/side and takeoff and landing distance in the 2200-2500 foot range. Sea level climb rate was around 1700 fpm on two, 350 on one.
Max gross was 6300 and empty was 4000 or so. ZFW was 5700.

Quote:


Pat would like more room than the Bonanza, which means more than the Baron, too.





For 2 -4 people the 340 has good room. Any more and it is too small. That old adage about getting too more seats than you need is correct. Also, the 340 is not made for "heavy" people. It's about a foot narrower than the 400 series.


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Tom Gresham (HDC)
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jerry Kurata [KLVK]]
      #249597 - 05/31/09 08:20 AM

Jerry, that's helpful. The wider cabin of the 400s would really be nice.

Typical load for me is 700 to 900 pounds, plus fuel. When I went to Arizona last month, it was three of us, and enough bags and stuff that it would not all fit into the back of my Tahoe.

The nose baggage area would really help. I liked that when I had the B55 and the Twin Bonanza.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #249609 - 05/31/09 09:37 AM

Tom: I can send you our weight and balance chart: I think with full fuel, 600 pounds in the cabin is all our plane can do.

Our max. gross is 6,200
Our empty weight is 4410.
190 of fuel at 6 pounds per gallon would be 1140.
That leaves 650.
We reduce by 50 for charts, VFR GPS and other odds and ends we have stuffed around somewhere.
So, 600 would be the max. cabin load in our plane.
Once can fly with just inboards full and pick up 144 pounds. Full fuel is 190; inboards are 166.

Best,

Dave


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Jerry Kurata [KLVK]
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #249664 - 05/31/09 06:27 PM

Tom,

All of the cabin class Cessnas have 3 cargo areas. Aft of the air stair door, the nacelles, and the nose. The 340 can have about 150 pounds in the aft area, 50 pounds in each nacelle and 100 pounds in the nose. The 400 series can carry considerably more in the nose. The 421 can even get pairs of skis in the nose.

With the smaller 340 we were able to carry enough luggage for our family of 4. That usually consisted of 3 large roller bags in the aft, and two carry on size bags in the nose. We put lighter items (ex. presents for relatives) in the nacelles.

We would flight plan for 175 kts end to end expecting to true out at 190 kts at 17000. This was running LOP at 32 gph total. Our plane had 204 gallon capability, 100 gallons in tips, 64 in the auxes, 40 in the nacelles.


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Cole Loftus [C89]
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Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #249876 - 06/02/09 12:05 PM

I was beginning to wonder about you; hadn't heard of you buying an airplane
for quite a while, thought maybe you'd kicked the habit.


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Tom Gresham (HDC)
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Cole Loftus [C89]]
      #250242 - 06/05/09 01:23 PM

Aw, Cole, I took a year off last year so I could spend $70,000 on the annual.

Well, not exactly. I did spend 70 grand, though. New engine, overhauled the prop, governor, turbo, wastegate controller, landing gear, replaced the exhaust, replaced the engine control cables and arms, new alternator and vacuum pump, etc., etc.

As for what I carry . . . a lot of stuff. It's pretty typical for me to have 12 to 25 bags, boxes, etc. in the plane.

Recent trip with three people aboard. The bags for clothes for a week (3 soft suitcases and three hanging bags). Three HD video cameras. Accessory bag (big). Two large tripods and one small one. Bag with audio gear. Reflectors. 15 handguns - each in an different case. Radio broadcast equipment (two bags), PA system (amp/speaker/stand), banners, two computer bags, and probably a half-dozen things I can't remember.

Seriously.


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Jerry Kurata [KLVK]
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #250253 - 06/05/09 02:31 PM

That's a load. Maybe a Cessna 208 (Caravan) is the way to go.:->

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Tom Gresham (HDC)
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jerry Kurata [KLVK]]
      #250319 - 06/06/09 08:10 AM

I'm taking a ride in a Duke today. Never been in one. I know all the horror stories about them, but the owners all seem to love the plane.

What I don't know, though, is whether there's enough room for all my stuff. No cabin or wing locker storage. It's either in the nose or on the floor of the cabin.

But, it's air conditioned, and Pat is going to like that!


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Cole Loftus [C89]
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #250418 - 06/07/09 05:10 AM

Same old story -- another nicely improved Gresham product for some lucky
buyer.

Watching with interest to see what you end up with next.


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Andrew Niemyer -KDLH
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #250438 - 06/07/09 11:34 AM

Tom:
I can put you in touch with a friend of mine who flew a Duke for a great many years. He'll tell you the good and the bad.

Best,
Andy


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Andrew Niemyer -KDLH]
      #250452 - 06/07/09 03:29 PM

Tom: How do I get on the buy Tom's old plane list <g>?

You seem to fix 'em up real nice. If looking for an A-36, I'd sure be callin ya!

Let me know what you decide to get; so, I can make plans for my future plane!!

You'll have a new problem if you go pressurized; any weaponry will have to be under the wings--no more shootin out the pilot's side window.

Best,

Dave


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Mase Taylor
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #250453 - 06/07/09 03:58 PM Attachment (317 downloads)

.




--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.

Edited by Mase Taylor [L.A] (06/07/09 03:58 PM)


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Mase Taylor
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #250454 - 06/07/09 04:01 PM Attachment (319 downloads)

.




--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.

Edited by Mase Taylor [L.A] (06/07/09 04:01 PM)


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Tom Gresham (HDC)
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #250470 - 06/07/09 07:17 PM

The ride in the Duke was great. Nice plane. I'm not getting a Duke.

The fuel burn is crazy for the speeds. The P-Baron is a better proposition, I think, or a Cessna.

All the Dukes I saw (they had eight there) had corrosion on the horizontal spabilizer, and the entire aft third of the fuselage is magnesium.

I like that plane. I'm just not brave enough to buy one.


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Jim Gifford
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #250474 - 06/07/09 08:20 PM Attachment (326 downloads)

To me, the Duke always looked like a very nice 1:72 airplane model to which some inattentive 11-year-old had glued the tailfeathers from a 1:32 model.

How about just getting an F-86 for you, and shipping all the bags, handguns and friends by deluxe motorcoach, John Madden style? Not practical, but ya gotta have style.



--------------------
Be well,
-Jim


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Jay Apt
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Cole Loftus [C89]]
      #250478 - 06/07/09 08:43 PM

Well, if it was Walter, it would start with Douglas or Convair.

Seriously, Tom's requirements are a very interesting set. Twin. Pressurized.
900 pounds useful load with full fuel. Fast. Good dispatch rate. Costs less
than a PC-12 or a small King Air.

Jay

--------------------
Jay Apt
www.OrbitExperience.com


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Tom Gresham (HDC)
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jay Apt]
      #250488 - 06/07/09 10:46 PM

Jay:

Another option is to just FEDEX the stuff for each trip. It would be cheaper than operating a twin. Seriously.


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Rick Durden
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #250489 - 06/07/09 10:53 PM

Tom,

>>The ride in the Duke was great. Nice plane. I'm not getting a Duke.<<

Sensible.

I've had three friends own Dukes. Each put his on the market within a month of buying it.

The aerodynamics are awful - there are those who said that Beech engineers were told to make the airplane slow so that it would not be faster than the King Air 90. With that power and with a little work on the aerodynamics it would outrun a King Air 90 series easily; but it would have created a marketing nightmare for the turboprop set at Beech.

414A might be right for you, although it's a bit slower than a 340 on the same engines, it carries well and is an utter delight to fly. (Vgs on the 340 bump up the useful load, so a 340A might work, all things considered.) With the current market, a 421C might also be worth doing, although it would depend on the condition of the engines. Hire Mike Busch to coordinate the pre-buy exam.

P-Baron won't work for you, I suspect. Cabin is too small and the reliability history of Beech turbocharging isn't always pretty.

The reality is that you need a supercharged, late version T-Bone or Queen Air. Yeah, you'll have to suck on a bag, but it will carry what you need, go high enough to get decent fuel efficiency and fly like a dream.

Cheers,
Rick


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Kcid LlirreM
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #250518 - 06/08/09 09:41 AM

Quote:

Jay:

Another option is to just FEDEX the stuff for each trip. It would be cheaper than operating a twin. Seriously.




When I moved to Tennessee I brought my new golf cart up in a u-haul. Would have been cheaper to sell the old one in Houston and buy a new one up here.

Dick


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Jerry Kurata [KLVK]
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #250565 - 06/08/09 04:46 PM

Quote:


But, it's air conditioned, and Pat is going to like that!




AC is a godsend in a pressurized airplane. I had the Keith electrical system which was nice. You could precool the plane with ground power, and there was no prohibition against using it on take off like the hydraulic system. And even thought it was an R-128 based, the Keith system got cold enough to chill the beer in your hand.

Jerry

Edited by Jerry Kurata [KLVK] (06/08/09 04:47 PM)


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Tom Gresham (HDC)
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jerry Kurata [KLVK]]
      #250605 - 06/08/09 11:08 PM

I'm looking at the Cessna pressurized twins. The 340 is smaller but faster. I don't know how much room is in the nose and wing lockers for baggage, so I need to see one.

The 414 would be nice, and the 421 would be great. I just wonder if it would feel strange flying across the country by myself hauling all that cabin behind me.

Rick, as you know, I loved the T-Bone. Wonderful plane. But, AC is number one on the wish list. Wider cabin is number two. Pressurization is three.

The mission has changed for me, and I'm not looking for adventure in flying. It's a working tool, and comfort for passengers has moved to the top.


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Evad Rellimhtug
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Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #250613 - 06/08/09 11:45 PM Attachment (372 downloads)

Tom,
One of our guys in the Aero Squadron has owned a 414 for many years and he really likes it. It has the higher horse power RAM engines on it and a good avionics suite. He also owns an L39 and a Gazelle helicopter.

I've probably got 20 or so right seat hours on department missions and we've hauled a LOT of crap in it.<g> I especially like how good the A/C system works when we're at the desert airports in the summer.



--------------------
Best,
Evad

Edited by Dave Guthmiller (06/08/09 11:49 PM)


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Evad Rellimhtug]
      #250643 - 06/09/09 12:26 PM

Dave,

Looks like it has Vortex Generators also. We added VGs to the RAM 414 I flew...I had to relearn how to land it. I liked them.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Evad Rellimhtug
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 2310
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #250650 - 06/09/09 01:32 PM

Quote:

Dave,

Looks like it has Vortex Generators also. We added VGs to the RAM 414 I flew...I had to relearn how to land it. I liked them.




Jeff,
Yes, it does have the VG's on it. It also has a flat screen TV in the back with DVD and VCR player. His wife doesn't like to fly much so she just climbs in the back, closes the curtains and watches movies until it's all over. <g>

--------------------
Best,
Evad


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Scott Hartwig
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 109
Loc: Southern Illinois
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #259141 - 08/08/09 08:54 PM

Tom,
I'd take a good look at the 340. I get to fly Courtesy's and it serves us well. If there is one of us or six of us, it seems to fill the bill quite well. Feels like cabin class (albeit narrow) yet doesn't seem too wasteful when only one or two of us aboard.
BTW, I camped two rows behind Curt and Debbie Welge at OSH this year, and the T-bone is doing well. We're going to be neighbors with them at IL71 near Carbondale, IL when we get the houses built.


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Scott Hartwig]
      #259429 - 08/10/09 08:09 PM Attachment (357 downloads)

I tried to find you...here's proof.



--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...

Edited by Jeff Hartmann (INT/SVH) (08/10/09 08:11 PM)


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Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 11777
Loc: NY
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #259434 - 08/10/09 08:27 PM

Jeff,

Was that the result of a bird strike?

--------------------
Best,

Bob


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #259438 - 08/10/09 09:01 PM

Looks like you're really into formation flight there Jeff <g>

Do you fly south in the summer?

Best,

Dave


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Robert Mann [HPN-NY]]
      #259447 - 08/10/09 09:42 PM

That's Scott's 195...in air refueling mode...it runs on...

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 11777
Loc: NY
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #259451 - 08/10/09 10:01 PM

Jeff,

If I were a bird, I wouldn't want to get struck that way.

--------------------
Best,

Bob


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Tom Gresham (HDC)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 1769
Loc: Louisiana
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Scott Hartwig]
      #259500 - 08/11/09 09:17 AM

Quote:

Tom,
I'd take a good look at the 340. I get to fly Courtesy's and it serves us well. If there is one of us or six of us, it seems to fill the bill quite well. Feels like cabin class (albeit narrow) yet doesn't seem too wasteful when only one or two of us aboard.
BTW, I camped two rows behind Curt and Debbie Welge at OSH this year, and the T-bone is doing well. We're going to be neighbors with them at IL71 near Carbondale, IL when we get the houses built.




Scott, I just got a note from Curt giving me an update on my old T-Bone. If I hadn't started the TV show and needed the A36 as a camera ship, I'd still have that plane. It flew like a dream.


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #259506 - 08/11/09 09:59 AM Attachment (417 downloads)

Tom,

Did you see this Baron at OSH...?


Some kinda numbers...!


--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...

Edited by Jeff Hartmann (INT/SVH) (08/11/09 10:00 AM)


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Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 11777
Loc: NY
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #259533 - 08/11/09 12:05 PM

Jeff,

Whose conversion is that?

--------------------
Best,

Bob


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Robert Mann [HPN-NY]]
      #259543 - 08/11/09 12:29 PM

You should know...RocketMann

Rocket Engineering:

http://www.rocketengineering.com/

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 11777
Loc: NY
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #259545 - 08/11/09 12:43 PM

Jeff,

<<You should know...RocketMann>>

That's why I asked. I knew they were working on this. I wasn't sure if anyone else was.

It ain't gonna be cheap, but it just might be an alternative to the current VLJ market.

--------------------
Best,

Bob


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Coyle Schwab - DPA
AVSIG Member


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 697
Loc: St Charles, IL
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Robert Mann [HPN-NY]]
      #259552 - 08/11/09 01:40 PM

At least it's self cauterizing!

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Robert Mann [HPN-NY]]
      #259576 - 08/11/09 05:45 PM

I looked at the Rocket Engineering conversion pretty closely back when my business had a future <g>

Like everything, a lot of pros and cons. Those PT-6s generated tremendous power; and drank a like amount of fuel. Since I already have a P-Baron, the conversion was only a bit over $1MM.

They were still trying to get the yellow arc raised to hit 300 knots true at FL250 last I spoke with them. Some feds wanted a barber pole. The fella at rocket just shucked that off and said it wouldn't be an issue. Sure put a lot of stress on that airframe and one wondered about Vmc on one and flutter, but that was shucked off too. 'Course all performance was based on getting to FL250 quickly. The cabin differential in the P puts it at 12,500 at FL250; no problem--use a cannula. If one cruised lower, the fuel burn would sure get you on the FBO's Christmas card list.

It sounds like a great VLJ alternative, but if they have the STC and you want to get it serviced or something needs warranty work, Washington can be quite a ways off.

Best,

Dave


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Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 11777
Loc: NY
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #259581 - 08/11/09 06:14 PM

Dave,

<< but if they have the STC and you want to get it serviced or something needs warranty work, Washington can be quite a ways off.>>

Can't speak specifically about this conversion, but the same concerns were raised regarding the Rocket. The answer from them was, "Whoever can work on a Mooney M20K and on a Cont TSIO-520NB can work on your Rocket." That was consistent with my experience. Occasionally, very occasionally, a shop had to call Rocket Engineering with a question about something that was modified under the STC.

So, my guess would be that whoever can work on a Baron and can work on a PT-6 ought to be able to work on the Turbine Baron.

--------------------
Best,

Bob


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Robert Mann [HPN-NY]]
      #259589 - 08/11/09 08:07 PM

Robert: They have already had one modification for the fuel pump; guess where one had to bring the plane for the mod.

Normal maintenance, I agree. But something to do with the STC that needs to be changed, and you'll be headed west.

Also, what gets priority? Selling a new Baron/Duke conversion, or fixing a problem with the five already out there?

There are a lot more Mooneys and Malibus out there than P-Baron and Duke conversions.

Best,

Dave


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