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AVSIG Discussion Sections >> Beechcraft

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Tom Gresham (HDC)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 1769
Loc: Louisiana
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jerry Kurata [KLVK]]
      #249468 - 05/30/09 08:44 AM

Well, I'm back from Minnesota. Was in St. Cloud for several days.

I'm not sure about the SID on Cessnas. What's an SID?

The wing spar issue on twin Cessnas is something I've heard about, but I don't know any details. A 421 would be great. May be more than I need, though. The 340 could be the answer, if it will haul all the stuff I carry.

Pat would like more room than the Bonanza, which means more than the Baron, too.

At gas prices go back up, maybe the twin market will improve even more for buyers.


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #249475 - 05/30/09 10:17 AM

Tom,

I flew a Cessna 414 (325hp Ram) through at least one set of engines. Without RAM the useful is not great. I liked it a lot, usually at FL210 at 205 kts, can't recall the fuel flow, 31gph?.
In a 340 I couldn't get the seat down far enough that my headset didn't hit the overhead.
I like the 421 for it's quieter low pitch "thrum". Better useful..little better speed.

I flew 425 #005 back in 1982...I always thought if I hit the lottery that it would be my personal transport.

I didn't pay for maintaining any of them, no help there.

I was in Gainesville, GA the other day. In one hangar was a 425 that was disemboweled...gutted, engines and gear off, tail removed..It was the new SID inspection. Estimated at 380,000 for the job. Does this eventually affect all the 400's?

http://twin.cessna.org/reference/cessna_402sid_paper.pdf

I found this report on the 414s

http://tinyurl.com/lmcm25

Side note on the 414 I flew. When I took it in for new boots, they found cracks in the leading edge skin of the horizontal stab, after removing the skin, found nearly every nose rib cracked...really curious.(I think it had about 5500 hours TT)

Dave may argue this, but I felt comfortable on a cool day to fly the 414 in and out of 3500 feet. The P Baron, I would like at least 4000...

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #249478 - 05/30/09 10:30 AM

Quote:

Dave may argue this, but I felt comfortable on a cool day to fly the 414 in and out of 3500 feet. The P Baron, I would like at least 4000...




Jeff: I don't think you'll finding me disagreeing with you much. I do like 4,000 in the P. I will do less if there is plenty of flat overrun, but obstacles at the end and near gross, 4,000 is where I try to be.

'Course, if everything goes right, shorter works <g>

Did a zero thrust engine loss last week in refresher training. Two of us and less than full fuel: instructor reduced power at 300 feet just at blue line. While the plane did climb, it was taking all it had and CHTs got up over 400 on the good engine. We were also turning to stay in the pattern; so, I'm sure it would have done better straight. Just have to respect these things or they can really get you, as you know.

The larger Cessnas are nicer for room, noise and comfort. The Baron handles better and one can make the case for better craftsmanship. I loved the stair entry on the Cessna, but thought it really handled like a truck compared to the Baron. All a matter of what one needs and likes. They certainly each have their place. For me, it's mostly one or two of us and I prefer the Beechcraft. If I had to carry more and folks had any issues with loading or unloading, I'd go to the Cessna.

When my Dad was older and having trouble getting around, the Cessna would have been much better because he insisted on riding up front; right seat.

Best,

Dave


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #249498 - 05/30/09 11:36 AM

Quote:

compared to the Baron




You got that right...until you get above the 90 series King Airs they are all "Nimble"...but surprisingly stable instrument platforms. Even down to the Deb, one of my first long IFR trips (maybe 1968 or so) was a Debonair from Miami to the just opened Stewart...(just googled, had to be 1970).

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Jerry Kurata [KLVK]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 6395
Loc: Northern California
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #249530 - 05/30/09 02:48 PM

Quote:

Well, I'm back from Minnesota. Was in St. Cloud for several days.

I'm not sure about the SID on Cessnas. What's an SID?

The wing spar issue on twin Cessnas is something I've heard about, but I don't know any details. A 421 would be great. May be more than I need, though. The 340 could be the answer, if it will haul all the stuff I carry.





What sort of load do you need to carry?

Mine had a Ram VI conversion and Robinson STOL conversion. That gave me 335 HP/side and takeoff and landing distance in the 2200-2500 foot range. Sea level climb rate was around 1700 fpm on two, 350 on one.
Max gross was 6300 and empty was 4000 or so. ZFW was 5700.

Quote:


Pat would like more room than the Bonanza, which means more than the Baron, too.





For 2 -4 people the 340 has good room. Any more and it is too small. That old adage about getting too more seats than you need is correct. Also, the 340 is not made for "heavy" people. It's about a foot narrower than the 400 series.


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Tom Gresham (HDC)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 1769
Loc: Louisiana
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Jerry Kurata [KLVK]]
      #249597 - 05/31/09 08:20 AM

Jerry, that's helpful. The wider cabin of the 400s would really be nice.

Typical load for me is 700 to 900 pounds, plus fuel. When I went to Arizona last month, it was three of us, and enough bags and stuff that it would not all fit into the back of my Tahoe.

The nose baggage area would really help. I liked that when I had the B55 and the Twin Bonanza.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #249609 - 05/31/09 09:37 AM

Tom: I can send you our weight and balance chart: I think with full fuel, 600 pounds in the cabin is all our plane can do.

Our max. gross is 6,200
Our empty weight is 4410.
190 of fuel at 6 pounds per gallon would be 1140.
That leaves 650.
We reduce by 50 for charts, VFR GPS and other odds and ends we have stuffed around somewhere.
So, 600 would be the max. cabin load in our plane.
Once can fly with just inboards full and pick up 144 pounds. Full fuel is 190; inboards are 166.

Best,

Dave


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Jerry Kurata [KLVK]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 6395
Loc: Northern California
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #249664 - 05/31/09 06:27 PM

Tom,

All of the cabin class Cessnas have 3 cargo areas. Aft of the air stair door, the nacelles, and the nose. The 340 can have about 150 pounds in the aft area, 50 pounds in each nacelle and 100 pounds in the nose. The 400 series can carry considerably more in the nose. The 421 can even get pairs of skis in the nose.

With the smaller 340 we were able to carry enough luggage for our family of 4. That usually consisted of 3 large roller bags in the aft, and two carry on size bags in the nose. We put lighter items (ex. presents for relatives) in the nacelles.

We would flight plan for 175 kts end to end expecting to true out at 190 kts at 17000. This was running LOP at 32 gph total. Our plane had 204 gallon capability, 100 gallons in tips, 64 in the auxes, 40 in the nacelles.


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Cole Loftus [C89]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 2291
Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Tom Gresham (HDC)]
      #249876 - 06/02/09 12:05 PM

I was beginning to wonder about you; hadn't heard of you buying an airplane
for quite a while, thought maybe you'd kicked the habit.


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Tom Gresham (HDC)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 1769
Loc: Louisiana
Re: Thinking about a P-Baron [Re: Cole Loftus [C89]]
      #250242 - 06/05/09 01:23 PM

Aw, Cole, I took a year off last year so I could spend $70,000 on the annual.

Well, not exactly. I did spend 70 grand, though. New engine, overhauled the prop, governor, turbo, wastegate controller, landing gear, replaced the exhaust, replaced the engine control cables and arms, new alternator and vacuum pump, etc., etc.

As for what I carry . . . a lot of stuff. It's pretty typical for me to have 12 to 25 bags, boxes, etc. in the plane.

Recent trip with three people aboard. The bags for clothes for a week (3 soft suitcases and three hanging bags). Three HD video cameras. Accessory bag (big). Two large tripods and one small one. Bag with audio gear. Reflectors. 15 handguns - each in an different case. Radio broadcast equipment (two bags), PA system (amp/speaker/stand), banners, two computer bags, and probably a half-dozen things I can't remember.

Seriously.


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