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Tom Tyson [SUW]
Glider Guider


Reged: 05/27/04
Posts: 4691
Loc: KSUW
V-Tales
      #181291 - 01/11/08 05:26 PM

I had a very pleasant dinner with a few pilot friends a few nights ago, and someone made the statement that after reviewing prices in a number of Trade-A-Planes, the V-35 and similar Bonanzas looked to him to be very good bargains these days.

At that point there ensued a lively discussion containing just about every OWTs ever heard about the Bo. Seemingly everyone at the table (yours truly excluded) had an opinion about the V-Tail, either as death trap or greatest thing since the Wright Flyer, though no one it turned out, had ever flown one for more than a few hours.

I've gotten curious about the V-Series and would like some real world observations about them.

I think I heard there are spar ADs, and there are one or more structural ADs for the tail. Do these ADs address the issues, or are there other problems lurking?

I also heard that almost every improvement made to the design in years subsequent to it's introduction in 1947(?) are available as STCs.

What's the real skinny? Are they good planes, or ones to pass on if the opportunity ever came to fly (or buy?) one.

And if they are gems (rough of otherwise), which models or features are the most desirable?

- TT

--------------------
Tom Tyson-A&P

Pilots without Mechanics are just Pedestrians with fancy watches.

Edited by Tom Tyson [KGSO] (01/11/08 05:44 PM)


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Jay Apt
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 1133
Loc: Pennsylvania
V-Tales [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #181300 - 01/11/08 08:31 PM

Hi Tom,

I owned a 1957 J35 for 12.5 years, then a 1977 A36 for 5 years. Had a Beech 18 for a while, now have a 1963 P35.

All those that needed the tail mod have it (that's most of the fleet). The prevalent fix is a leading-edge cuff; a simple and effective piece of hardware.

The spar issue is interesting, with much mis-information. Raytheon issued a mandatory service bulletin with a bad (and expensive) mod. Not "mandatory" unless you are a Part 135, of course. The American Bonanza Society let a contract for extensive flt tests on an instrumented Bonanza (without cracks) and analysis. On-going, and the FAA is happy to have the type club do this work.

Currently, AD 95-04-03 requires a 1500 hour inspection (not hard, and should be a part of any pre-purchase). Read it at http://tinyurl.com/yudc74 . Don't buy one with any cracks.

Jump on http://www.beechtalk.com/ and ask there. Very good folks, including (I think) George Braly of GAMI, who very infrequently these days is also here.

My P35 averages 156 KTAS on 12.5 gph.

Jay


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Mike McNamara - 19N (NJ)
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Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 156
Loc: New Jersey
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #181504 - 01/14/08 03:03 PM

I own a 1965 Debonair which is a type of Bonanza. I've owned it for 2200 hours & 12 years.

The very early Bonanzas can be bought cheap; maintenance will have to be a hobby. Definitely not a "kick the tires & light the fires" kind of airplane.

The 1980s V Tails are great, reliable, performing, traveling machines. They stopped making them then.

The ones in between are, uh, in between.

Purchase price is inconsequential; buy one that has been maintained impecably & have a Bonanza expert do an extensive prebuy.


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Pat Byrne
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Reged: 07/29/04
Posts: 56
Loc: TN
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #181505 - 01/14/08 03:11 PM

Hi Tom-
You need to distinguish (sp?) between the older 1956 and earlier V tails and the later ones. The early V tails use the carburated E185/225 series engines--have a splined prop, like mogas (watch out for ethanol tho-) and are not subject to the "spar crack" AD. They are lighter, some think they handle better, and are in todays market a real bargain, at 30k to 75K. You need to have a good Bo mechanic nearby to keep em flying but boy 150 mph on 10 gals/hr at $3.00 a gallon these days is great.
The post 1956 are heavier, use injected I470 to I550 continental engines,flanged prop (more choices), need 100LL, are faster, but are subjected to the spar AD. They may reach as high as 150K, depending on equipment and condition but are really nice.
I fly a 1956 G35 which I love.
Pat Byrne

Edited by Pat Byrne (01/14/08 03:16 PM)


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: V-Tales [Re: Pat Byrne]
      #181507 - 01/14/08 03:24 PM

P - re>>I fly a 1956 G35 which I love<<

Concur, sure wish I had my G back!!!!!

best, randy


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Gil Buettner [KAUW]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 2847
Loc: Gateway to the Northwoods
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #181512 - 01/14/08 05:03 PM

Quote:


What's the real skinny? Are they good planes, or ones to pass on if the opportunity ever came to fly (or buy?) one.

And if they are gems (rough of otherwise), which models or features are the most desirable?

- TT




I have been in love with mine since I bought it in 1995. I'm fortunate to have the IO-550 engine and my 1967 V-35 is one with a bit more useful load than some of the others, both earlier and later models.

There are quite a few of them at Kalamazoo, where I got mine when I lived there. The consensus there was that an S-model or later would be the best combination of speed and load.

I think what folks say about the handling characteristics is true. There have been few airplanes that I could say I enjoyed flying as much.

--------------------
-Gil


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Nigel Thompson(1D2)
AVSIG Member


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 610
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #181713 - 01/16/08 12:28 PM

Tom, Bonanzas are the best GA airplane ever designed and built. Anything else you want to know?.... it is also the world's longest running production airplane, by a long margin, 60 years now and counting, on the same type certificate. V tails (BE35's) started in 1947 and stopped in 1982. Straight tail (BE33's) started in 1959 and stopped around 2000-ish, and the stretch fuselage straight tail (BE36's) started in 1968 and is still in production. They are all basically the same airplane.

I have had three, two V tails and a straight tail. Wonderful handling (early ones are better because they are lighter, but they are getting old). No significant handling difference between V's and short body straights.
Huge range of available modifications, probably more than any other GA airframe. My current one is rather more modified than most, and has something like 20 STC's on it, three of them major (STOL system, tip tanks, and Turbonormalised engine).

V tail structural concern addressed on the whole fleet years ago. Some routine inspection ADís on the structure, a small number have had a main spar problem, for which there is a controversial fix. This may get to be a bigger problem as the FAA gets more concerned about these ever older airframes (not just Boís).

Come to CAD in Feb. Between Walter, Gil, Jay and I there are untold Ď000ís of hours in Boís of all varieties and ages. Even Durden has some experience (needless to say), although I donít think he has ever owned one. We can bore you more than you could ever imagine on the topic of Bonanzaís.

Nigel.


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Tom Pelz [OVS]
Public Guest


Reged: 11/27/04
Posts: 18
Loc: Wisconsin
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #182881 - 01/27/08 01:28 AM

I am just repeating what others have said, but I will say it anyway.

I have owned my Bonanza for 22 year plus years. Mine is a 1959 K35.

It has been a wonderful magic carpet.

I have been upgrading the airplane ever since I bought it. My Current project is the installation of an IO550B engine.

The airframe is solid. The airplane looks great, even though it is almost fifty years old.

I have looked at other airplanes, such as the T210 or the A36. I have never considered the newer airplane such as the Cirrus as their prices are outside of what I consider reasonable (along with the new Bonanza). Therefore, I have made improvements on the curent airframe. Fortunately, my insurance company allows me to increase my insured value such that i could replace my airplane should it be destroyed.

Oh, did I forget to tell you that my "forktailed doctor killer" has not killed me yet - after more than 3000 hours and the fact that I am a doctor.

Tom Pelz


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Tom Tyson [SUW]
Glider Guider


Reged: 05/27/04
Posts: 4691
Loc: KSUW
Re: V-Tales [Re: Nigel Thompson(1D2)]
      #182893 - 01/27/08 07:35 AM

Quote:

... Come to CAD in Feb. Between Walter, Gil, Jay and I there are untold Ď000ís of hours in Boís of all varieties and ages. Even Durden has some experience (needless to say), although I donít think he has ever owned one. We can bore you more than you could ever imagine on the topic of Bonanzaís.




It pains me to report that I'm going to have to take a pass on CAD this year, I'm going to be in the middle of wood structures at school and there's no way they'd let me miss two days. It saddens me all the more hearing that in addition to all the usual suspects a few of the more UN-usual ones (or that EXOTIC? <grin>) will be there this year.

Rosemary and I >WILL< be at OSH all week again this year, and we look forward to seeing everyone there - and who knows, maybe even at CAD the weekend before ...

I'm passing along all this information about early V-tails to my fellow A&P student and pilot who started the conversation at dinner one evening, and I've been spending a bit more time in the Beech 35 section of Trade-A-Plane myself. This thread is proving to be doubly useful, at least as far as I'm concerned.


Oh! One question that arose when I related some of this to friends passing through last weekend who fly an AA-5 Tiger was about weight and balance. How wide is the CG envelope on early 35s, and how well do 35s handle four adults plus "weekend" bags and three hours fuel? No, they aren't carrying that in the Tiger, just the two of them, but the main reason they might consider moving up to something with longer legs would be if another couple could go with them on their East Coast jaunts. Their impressions are that they would need an A-36 for that sort of trip.

Thanks to all for providing good real world info - this is what makes AvSIG what it is.

- TT

--------------------
Tom Tyson-A&P

Pilots without Mechanics are just Pedestrians with fancy watches.

Edited by Tom Tyson [KGSO] (01/27/08 07:40 AM)


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #182921 - 01/27/08 11:22 AM

TT/TGT/GG - What you'd suggested/asked about straight 35s might easily qualify one as a test pilot during normal ops, a postion I always endeavored to avoid at all costs.

best, randy


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #182939 - 01/27/08 02:03 PM

Tom -- What weights on the adults? The 170 lb. "standard" isn't such a hot
thing to assume, these days.

Also, when you say 3 hours fuel, do you mean a nominal 3 hour leg, or a
prudent length trip, all considering, with truly only three hours of fuel
aboard?

Some data for a real V35B (707RD) that I've flown (owned by Skitch
Henderson at the time) shows that on a two hour trip (say, HPN - AGC) at 65%
power, 10,000', no wind, with about 3 hours of fuel aboard (40 gallons), 4 of
those 170 lbs. mythical people, 50 pounds of baggage, charts, flashlights,
and sick sacks, you'd be under MGW in all phases of flight, but aft of the
rearmost cg the whole time, too.


Now if you were going east the cg would probably be better. <G>

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Tom Tyson [SUW]
Glider Guider


Reged: 05/27/04
Posts: 4691
Loc: KSUW
Re: V-Tales [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #182950 - 01/27/08 02:51 PM

Quote:

... you'd be under MGW in all phases of flight, but aft of the rearmost cg the whole time, too ...




Yeah, a real 3 hrs. Ann allowed as how she had a two hour range these days and wasn't about to try out and new range extending equipment, so two hours plus reserves is it.

They said at the time that they thought a 35 would be aft of the rear limit, but weren't sure, so thanks for confirming.

It sounds like they're going to be keeping the Tiger for a little bit longer.

- TT

--------------------
Tom Tyson-A&P

Pilots without Mechanics are just Pedestrians with fancy watches.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: V-Tales [Re: Jay Apt]
      #182952 - 01/27/08 02:57 PM

Jay:

I don't know if you have kept up with the tests George has done and research he's conducted up in Ada. Walter was discussing them the other day on another board and stated that the wing spar problems have seemed to have come from stresses from not landing straight during cross wind conditions rather than in flight stresses. Stresses passed down the skin and frame across the web spar when the plane twisted during landing. Maybe Walter will jump in and elaborate.

Best,

Dave


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: V-Tales [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #182955 - 01/27/08 03:13 PM

D - re>>Walter<<

Gotta wonder if'n he feels any older since a few days ago <g>?

best, randy


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #182974 - 01/27/08 04:42 PM

Tom -- Early A36 is a good deal for that, or a 182, or Cherokee 6/early
Saratoga. For 2 hour legs, you don't need a whole lot of speed, but they
probably want the sexiness of the Bo (if not the more fun handling than brand
C or P).

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Jay Apt
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 1133
Loc: Pennsylvania
Re: V-Tales [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #182980 - 01/27/08 06:03 PM

Thanks Dave. I've heard some rumors along those lines - will follow with
interest.

Jay

--------------------
Jay Apt
www.OrbitExperience.com


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Nigel Thompson(1D2)
AVSIG Member


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 610
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #183163 - 01/29/08 11:32 AM

Tom, re: CoG.

4 170 lb adults plus 60 gals of fuel (say 2.5 hours plus reserves) is possible in mine, but no baggage, otherwise you will be out of the aft CG limit at the end of the trip. Mine is helped a lot by the TN conversion and 3 blade prop moving the CG forward.

I can carry 320 lbs of adults (wife and I)in the front, and two teenagers at 110 lb each in the back and some baggage along with full fuel OK. Get them to move the rear seats fully forward for landing helps too.

They are not nice airplanes out of the rear CG limit. The limited CG range was always an issue with the short body Bo's. Never really a four person, baggage and not much fuel airframe (and indeed how many 4 seat GA airplanes are?). Less of a GTOW issue than a low fuel CG, as it moves aft with fuel burn, and with the large baggage hold you can put stuff a long way back if you are not careful.

Nigel.


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Tom Tyson [SUW]
Glider Guider


Reged: 05/27/04
Posts: 4691
Loc: KSUW
Re: V-Tales [Re: Nigel Thompson(1D2)]
      #183225 - 01/29/08 08:44 PM

Well, I guess my Tiger flying friends won't be buying a -35 any time soon.

Chris, on the other hand may continue to look for the "right" one. As for me, I've got to get the Cub out of the shop before I even think about another set of wings.

Thanks to everyone for all the information - this is why many of us belong to AvSIG.

And Randy, Nigel, Jay, Tom, Walter, Gil and the rest of you here, I hope I get to see you all at OSH this summer.

Blue Skies, Y'All

- TT

--------------------
Tom Tyson-A&P

Pilots without Mechanics are just Pedestrians with fancy watches.


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Tom Pelz [OVS]
Public Guest


Reged: 11/27/04
Posts: 18
Loc: Wisconsin
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #183675 - 02/02/08 09:39 PM

Regarding the W&B of the Bonanza.

There are good and bad, depending upon avionics and where the stuff is stashed.

My 1959 K 35 is one of the "short" ones. That is the cabin is not too long, or so they say.

The long Bonanzas have an extended baggage compartment which is wonderful until you realized that you can really get into trouble with heavy things in the luggage compartment.

Essentially all 35 Bonanzas are about the same dimensions. Newer ones are a bit longer because of the tail cone and the pointed spinner. Otherwise, there is no length difference in any of the 35 series Bonanzas. The 36 Bonanza is about 10 inches longer.

My K35 has a EW of 2099 pounds. Its CG at that is 78.11.

I have loaded four people, 2 = 270 pounders in the front and two 170 pounders in the rear and 90 pound of luggage and 44 gal gas and have been under gross and within CG, at take off and landing.

I believe that the 36 Bonanza has a more generous CG.

Still, consider this. A 1973 Aztec loaded with six passengers and max fuel for the passenger and luggage has about one inch CG range at full gross.

I chose my Bonanza because it was one of the newer ones with fuel injection, stronger spar, etc. It also has 63 gal usable fuel, if it has the aux tanks.

The N35 (1961) and newer have a possible of 73 gal usable fuel.

What I am trying to say is that should you chose a 1959 or newer Bonanza you will have acquired an excellent aircraft which has significant upgrade abilities. My original engine was 250 HP. I then upgraded to the IO520 with 285. I am currently installing an IO550B.

You can check onto the BDS website and see what upgrades they have available for the Bonanza.

I could go on and on, but I feel that I would only bore you with my admiration of this airplane.

Tom


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nehoC hctiM
Top Gun


Reged: 08/03/04
Posts: 2293
Loc: LAX Based 10/2016 - Current YA...
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Pelz [OVS]]
      #183987 - 02/07/08 10:26 AM

Tom,

Keep going.

Your not boring me!

Where in Wi?

I have flown many Bo's over the years.

Seem to remember doing a buddy's I rating in a 46' model?
It had flaretubes (Sealed) and throwover yoke..yeah, I know.

Flew a 78 V tail from GSP to Phx area.

Checked out in an A-36 about 20 years ago, and flew it a bunch.

Flew a brand new at the time F-33 back in about 1979 cross country as well.

Lots of baron time too.

Nothing flys like a Bonanza.



Edited by nehoC hctiM (02/07/08 10:41 AM)


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Ray Lockhart
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/22/04
Posts: 7
Loc: New Jersey
Re: V-Tales [Re: Nigel Thompson(1D2)]
      #184798 - 02/14/08 12:54 PM

Nigel,

Glad you are still enjoying 99RL.

Best
Ray


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Nigel Thompson(1D2)
AVSIG Member


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 610
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: V-Tales [Re: Ray Lockhart]
      #184893 - 02/15/08 11:15 AM

Ray, good to hear from you. 99RL is running well, I haven't done anything major to her, only the usual detailed little clean up things plus routine maintenance.

I heard from Raymond the other day, who bought my previous V tail and took it to Vancouver. He flew it hard for two years, and then put a TN 550 in it and is planning to fly to Europe and back this summer.

If you are ever in the Michigan area make sure you let me know, I'll take you for a ride in your old bird (which still goes regularly to Millard incidentally, we were there over Thanksgiving).

Nigel.


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Tom Pelz [OVS]
Public Guest


Reged: 11/27/04
Posts: 18
Loc: Wisconsin
Re: V-Tales [Re: nehoC hctiM]
      #185392 - 02/20/08 12:36 AM

Owning the older Bonanza is an opportunity to have an aircraft which is upgradeable and still maintain its value.

If you plan your upgrades well, you can increase utility without sacrificing safety - that is having your CG in the aft area.

Three blade prop moved my cg forward 1/2 inch (which is a major deal).

Eliminating the heavy AP stuff in the area aft of the luggage compartment also helped move the CG forward.

The speed slope window helps move the CG forward.

In the S35 and newer aircraft, IMHO, the best way to move the CG forward is to add turbocharging. I believe that the turbo adds 30 or more pounds forward of the CG, which really helps.

Often, I have seen that the best way to improve the CG on a Bonanza is to have it weighed.

Sometimes, during calculations by the mechanic,after things have been added, removed or changed, there is a mis-calculation. This results in an apparent aft CG which is not present in real life.

Finally, the one problem with ownership of a Bonanza is that you probably are only pilot on the field who has a Bonanza, especially if your are in rural America. I live in Boscobel, Wisconsin. The nearest "Bonanza" expert is many, many miles away. Thus, even though there is an AI on the field, he prefers Pipers. Thus, I have to have my own parts and maintenance manuals. I also have to maintain copies of the Beech 100 hour / Annual check list to be used for each inspection.

Having the manuals has made life easier. At the same time, should you need something fixed and the A&P does not have the manuals, contacting the American Bonanza Society will get you the information you need to. This happened once when my left main strut seal let go while I was on a trip east.

The expert was able to tell the mechanic how to remove the landing gear (he had not a clue that he had to remove the entire landing gear) and how much fluid to add and tell him that he only need 100 PSI of nitrogen to charge the gear after it was resealed.

On the other hand, in 22 plus years of ownership, I have had very few things break.

Tom


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Andrew Niemyer -KDLH
Top Gun


Reged: 09/18/04
Posts: 3353
Loc: Minnesota
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Pelz [OVS]]
      #185417 - 02/20/08 01:53 PM

Tom:
I know you're pretty far southwest, but I do know of a very good mechanic up towards me in Cumberland, WI, Jim Barker at ACVibes. He's done a lot of work on various Debs, 35's and 36's.

Best regards,
Andy


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Gil Buettner [KAUW]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 2847
Loc: Gateway to the Northwoods
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Pelz [OVS]]
      #185450 - 02/20/08 08:10 PM

Quote:


Finally, the one problem with ownership of a Bonanza is that you probably are only pilot on the field who has a Bonanza, especially if your are in rural America. I live in Boscobel, Wisconsin. The nearest "Bonanza" expert is many, many miles away.

Tom




When I lived in Kalamazoo, there were probably at least a dozen Bonanzas on the field. In Duluth, I had one of just two at KDLH. Here in Wausau (actually, CWA for me) there are just a half dozen or so, between Mosinee and Merrill.

I still take mine back to Kalamazoo, but there is a fellow in Ladysmith who is well known for specializing in Bonanzas.

--------------------
-Gil


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Tom Pelz [OVS]
Public Guest


Reged: 11/27/04
Posts: 18
Loc: Wisconsin
Re: V-Tales [Re: Gil Buettner [KAUW]]
      #189738 - 03/21/08 05:29 PM

Just a bit more information to give you all who fly Bonanzas.

In 1992 I upgraded my IO470 to an IO520. Big improvement. Better rate of climb, better high altitude performance, etc.

For the past 4 1/2 months I have been working on an installation of an IO550B in my Bonanza.

Please understand, I was a bit nervous about this. I bought the engine from an aircraft rebuilder in Arkansas. It had 1445 hours since reman. The airframe it came from was a 1977 A36 which had landed short. The result was both main gear were gone, but the airplane was sitting nose high, the engine was not touched.

I read the accident report, then bought the engine.

I purchased a BDS baffle kit for a straight engine installation, vs the canted installation.

I then flew the airplane to my AI 's airport and began the job of removing and replacing the engine.

Now the good news.

1. Shorter take off distance. I don't know how much shorter, but it really gets up and scoots.

2. Better Rate of Climb

3. Best of all. Cruise.

I used to cruise at 2400 and full throttle or 22 inches and 12.6 - 13 GPH at 155 - 160 KTAS.

Now: 2200 RPM, 21 inches 10.6 GPH and 155- 160 KTAS.

Why only fly 155- 160 TAS? Gear speed is 140 MPH indicated. Maneuvering speed is 144 IAS. Flying that much faster than maneuvering speed is not my idea of fun.

However, flying at 180 MPH (155 - 160KTAS) at 10.6 GPH is my idea of an excellent mixture of economy and speed.

CHT 256 on the hottest cylinder. EGT 1455 on the hottest.

==

Regarding TBO. I do oil analysis with each oil change (25 - 35 hours). I monitor engine compression routinely. I see no reason to fix something that is not broke.

This engine looks and runs great. I believe it will go at least another 1000 hours.

Tom


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Andrew Niemyer -KDLH
Top Gun


Reged: 09/18/04
Posts: 3353
Loc: Minnesota
Re: V-Tales [Re: Tom Pelz [OVS]]
      #189823 - 03/22/08 07:51 AM

Tom:
All I can say is "wow!" Very nice results. I have the IO-550N on my SR-22. When I have the chance I will see what similar settings get me. Right now I normally fly at about 2650 RPM, and start with a FF of 15.0 GPH, LOP and lean from there depending on OAT. Normally max CHT is around 320 and below, and around 1455 EGT.

Post some pix!

Best,
Andy


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