AVSIG: The End of FAA Charts? wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
The End of FAA Charts?
      #431303 - 10/03/16 11:48 PM

This article on the possible end of FAA Charts as we know them was interesting especially for those of us who grew up of DOD plates. :)

Bill


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #431312 - 10/04/16 09:50 AM

I pulled out an enroute chart the other day. Clearance had me using an airway to intercept an airway. I knew there was an intersection there, easier to program the FMS.

I guess they don't give you the intersection name because it is not (officially) on both airways...(?) looks like it is though.

CREWE if U R curious. J14 to intercept J51

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 1862
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #431318 - 10/04/16 11:33 AM

Is there anything on the chart that shows that CREWE is not on both of those airways? It sure looks like a real intersection on the chart.

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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #431319 - 10/04/16 12:01 PM

Quote:

I guess they don't give you the intersection name because it is not (officially) on both airways...(?) looks like it is though.



They don't give it because their system doesn't need it. The ATC computer is quite happy with the routing ..J14.J51..; our airborne systems, of course, are not.


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #431321 - 10/04/16 02:38 PM

To Andy, I looked at it after I typed...on both, no little u shaped mark.

Lawrence, Tis a pain sometimes...but easier for the Feds.

Half the time we get a clearance to JEANY, the other to a GSO 058/38.

Other than checking these things, the charts are folded..

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...

Edited by Jeff Hartmann (EXX/SVH) (10/04/16 02:52 PM)


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #431322 - 10/04/16 03:23 PM

Have any of you used Sky Vector Charts? What I like about Skyvector is the ease of changing from High to Low and to VFR.

I also use AirNav.

Bill


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 1862
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #431323 - 10/04/16 03:40 PM

Jeff, not sure what u shaped mark you're looking for but on the Hi alt chart at CREWE there is a little arrow along J14 which I thought meant that it was the airway defining that intersection along the crossing airway. Wouldn't that mean that the intersection had to be defined by those airways and that it had to be on both of them?

Andy


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 1862
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #431324 - 10/04/16 03:44 PM

Jeff, also there are breaks in the line for both of the airways which would mean the intersection is part of the airways. Compare with FLASK which appears to be on both Q69 and J48 but there is no break in the line for Q69 indicating it's not really a part of that airway?

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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #431325 - 10/04/16 03:49 PM

Right Andy,

The U I referred to is sometimes used to show an intersection is not part of an airway. Not a letter U, but the airway has a little U around the intersection. As in don't include this. Rather than the break in the line you mentioned.

I typed then looked, need to engage brain, then keyboard. :-)

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #431332 - 10/04/16 08:25 PM

Quote:

I pulled out an enroute chart the other day. Clearance had me using an airway to intercept an airway. I knew there was an intersection there, easier to program the FMS.

I guess they don't give you the intersection name because it is not (officially) on both airways...(?) looks like it is though.

CREWE if U R curious. J14 to intercept J51




Jeff - I had the same thing with V airways as I headed for Duluth....intercept one airway from another, west of ELZ VOR (upstate NY). 1) There is an intersection there; 2) Before I got there I asked for direct BUF and got it (as always). I have never flown the route given on the ground when heading toward BUF.


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #431333 - 10/04/16 09:31 PM

>>>> I have never flown the route given on the ground when heading toward BUF. <<<<

It's that steely eyed camel smokin gravely captains voice....they recognize true talent...direct anywhere!

What you say is true, quite often on a convoluted route you spend more time loading it, than flying the shortcut to the house.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
Top Gun


Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 1857
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #431337 - 10/05/16 12:58 AM

Quote:

Sky Vector Charts?



Sky Vector is probably the best online chart interface out there. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the best planning/briefing/filing system to go along with it. I like fltplan.com and end up defaulting its charting function, even though it's not as good.


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #431442 - 10/08/16 12:44 AM

There is no requirement that all airway intersection points be named. The airways either intersect or they don't, and ATC can clear aircraft accordingly. The computers do have an internal non-publshed intersection point in the adaptation that links the two routes, but the internal point should never be publicly visible or included in a clearance.

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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #431446 - 10/08/16 09:51 AM

I don't understand why this disconnect developed between what the ATC computers can do and what the airborne RNAV and FMS systems do.

When Honeywell, Collins, Garmin, etc. were developing their products ATC was already issuing airway-to-airway clearances without a common fix so why didn't they include that capability? I don't get it.


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #431452 - 10/08/16 04:44 PM

Beats me -- I'm kind of surprised that an FMS can't handle that, but I guess the answer lies in some TSO. It may involve the need for those fake fixes - FAA had to create them to establish common points on both routes for their computers to use, but they aren't part of the legal definition of the route(s) so maybe the FMS companies didn't adopt the same strategy.

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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #431453 - 10/08/16 05:36 PM

I would think that it would be the FMS not having enough computing capacity.

Bill


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #431472 - 10/09/16 09:17 AM

The Collins FMS handles radial/distance easily, and can display airways on the MFD....

Just wish they would say jet xxx /intersection /jet xxy VOR , as they do for airways to VORs.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #431483 - 10/09/16 09:35 PM

I don't remember it coming up with the Smiths, but with the Honeywells in the Hawke and the Excel, we could put in ABC/050/XYZ/270 to define crossing radials. That still required a chart, of course, at which time you would find a named intersection 90% of the time.

Edited by Bruce Gorrell [EQY] (10/09/16 09:37 PM)


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #431547 - 10/11/16 04:02 PM

You can do the radials but then you haven't loaded the airways which include any fixes along the way. Only way I know to do it is look up the fix at the intersection. Same for the GA RNAV units I've used.

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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: The End of FAA Charts? [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #431557 - 10/11/16 11:08 PM

The airway interactions aren't always named. If not, you just run the airway to ABC, enter the intersecting radials, direct to XYZ (or the next intersection if there's one before ZYZ) and pick up the new airway.

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