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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Center Line Thrust
      #420866 - 01/18/16 11:54 AM

This is an offshoot of the CPL PTS discussion.

Obviously, a Cessna 337 is a multiengine aircraft with center line thrust.

What about multiengine aircraft whose thrust is close enough to the center
line that one would not expect a huge yaw moment on engine failure? I'm
thinking of DC-9/MD-80 and B727. Shorter fuselages, such as A-10 and
Citation might well have significant yaw with one engine out.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #420868 - 01/18/16 12:07 PM

Quote:

What about multiengine aircraft whose thrust is close enough to the center
line that one would not expect a huge yaw moment on engine failure? I'm
thinking of DC-9/MD-80 and B727.



False premise.

A V1 cut in a DC9 takes full rudder, plus a little bit of aileron, to maintain heading as you climb at V2.

The DC8, with its four engines, required considerably less rudder when losing an outboard engine at V1. The V1 cut on the DC8 is a non-event in comparison.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #420874 - 01/18/16 02:59 PM

Larry would know those aircraft. For the Citation II and V I wouldn't say it's a non-even, but pretty manageable if above Vmc and more speed helps. V2 for us is always Vmc or more. Some of the AF folks had trouble with civil insurance with some of their fighters. The 337 of course, was centerline as was the Adam prototype that never came to fruition.

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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #420879 - 01/18/16 03:41 PM

CJ-4 with 3600/side takes all the rudder.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #420880 - 01/18/16 03:58 PM

The F-4 Phantom is considered center-line thrust from the standpoint of a military pilot obtaining a civilian certificate.

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #420881 - 01/18/16 04:14 PM

Quote:

CJ-4 with 3600/side takes all the rudder.



Yep.

What people forget is that the designers give each airplane just as much rudder as it needs to meet the most restrictive certification criteria. For most twins that is the V1 cut. For the DC8 it was a two-engine-out (on the same side) go-around. The design must not only handle the situations where rudder is needed but it must handle situations where there is a rudder hard-over and the more authority the rudder has the more difficult that requirement will be to meet.


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #420882 - 01/18/16 04:32 PM

Quote:

there is a rudder hard-over and the more authority the rudder has the more difficult that requirement will be to meet.





For a rudder hard-over is differential power a viable option?

the other bill


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Center Line Thrust [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #420886 - 01/18/16 04:59 PM

Thanks, yrraL. I asked seeking wisdom and found some.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #420887 - 01/18/16 05:07 PM

Quote:

For a rudder hard-over is differential power a viable option?



I do not know the certification requirements. I would not think that it would be based on using differential power for recovery.


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Gil Buettner [KAUW]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 2847
Loc: Gateway to the Northwoods
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #420889 - 01/18/16 08:51 PM

My multi-engine rating was limited to centerline thrust after graduating from UPT with only T-37 and T-38 time.

When I returned to civilian life I took my C-130 records to the FSDO and had a new certificate without the restriction.

--------------------
-Gil


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #420894 - 01/18/16 09:48 PM

The F14 is considered by the FAA to be centerline thrust. The engines (15,000 lb thrust) are 26 feet apart. I have seen them yaw 90° off the cat with a burner blowout.

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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Center Line Thrust [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #420903 - 01/19/16 04:20 AM

Why am I not surprised to read of another disconnect between FAA and reality?

Thanks.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #420906 - 01/19/16 09:12 AM

Military aircraft certainly aren't their strong suit. Some years ago an FAA higher-up, who had a brief presence on Avsig, wanted to force civilian Warbird owners to disable their ejection seats. I made a sarcastic crack about it, and he, assuming I owned a Warbird, threatened to ground it for good...

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #420912 - 01/19/16 10:59 AM

Quote:



What people forget is that the designers give each airplane just as much rudder as it needs to meet the most restrictive certification criteria.




And warbirds didn't have to meet certification criteria.


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #420925 - 01/19/16 01:04 PM

This came up a number of years ago.

I think it was Rick Cremer who pointed out, the FAA considers any aircraft with fuselage mounted engines to be CLT.

And yes, the A-10 can generate enough yaw to lead to loss of control due to engine failure.

We will not discuss how I got my CLT restriction (from T-37/T-38) removed from Comm. :)

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #420932 - 01/19/16 02:35 PM

Quote:

as it needs to meet the most restrictive certification criteria......And warbirds didn't have to meet certification criteria.




Not only warbirds, DC-3s. Seems to me (try'n to recall) I'd written a Warbird Note once about that exact situation.

best, randy


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #420937 - 01/19/16 05:50 PM

Yep, you mentioned it when I got the B-25 SIC rating. I'm just repeating what you said before :)

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nehoC hctiM
Top Gun


Reged: 08/03/04
Posts: 2293
Loc: LAX Based 10/2016 - Current YA...
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #420939 - 01/20/16 09:11 AM

As Captain B indicated,

The Crj 200-700-900 all take close to full rudder in a worst case engine failure, or v1- cut.
Same goes for the EMB-120, 170-175-190.

Just enough rudder to handle the situation, possibly some percentage over.

Not mentioned yet, if you have a Multi Engine rating, you can fly Any ME aircraft including clt. If you have a clt restriction, you are limited to clt aircraft only.

--------------------
USA Today said, people over 50 are calmer.

Edited by nehoC hctiM (01/20/16 09:14 AM)


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 1862
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #420941 - 01/20/16 10:08 AM

The following from 8900.1

E. Limited to Center Thrust Limitation.
1) The military aircraft listed below have no VMC established by the manufacturer. Other military multiengine airplanes may exist now or in the future for which there is no published data on VMC. Military pilots who can only show qualification in those kinds of multiengine airplanes may only be issued a multiengine airplane rating with the limitation “Limited to Center Thrust.”
a) T-2B/C Rockwell Buckeye.
b) T-37 Cessna 318.
c) T-38 Northrop Talon.
d) F-4 McDonnell-Douglas Phantom.
e) F-111 General Dynamics F-111.
Indicates new/changed information.
f) F-18 Northrop-McDonnell-Douglas Hornet.
g) A-6 Grumman American Intruder.
h) A-10 Fairchild Republic Thunderbolt II.
i) F-15 McDonnell-Douglas Eagle.
j) F-14 Grumman F-14.
k) F-117 Lockheed Stealth.
l) F-22 Boeing/McDonnell F-22.
Indicates new/changed information.
2) The “Limited to Center Thrust” limitation is not placed on a pilot certificate when the airplane has a VMC published on the airplane’s Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) or approved AFM.


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #420944 - 01/20/16 01:31 PM

Actually, there IS a VMC for the A-10A. But it is not written as Vmc.

The Dash 1 says, about an engine loss on take off:

Below 70 KIAS, flight control input may not be sufficient to maintain control of the aircraft with one engine at MAX and the other engine failed.

Also:

During single-engine operations, failure to use sufficient rudder can result in large sideslip angles and yaw rates. It is possible to create a condition where the yaw rate becomes so high that there is insufficient rudder available to correct it, and the aircraft will depart controlled flight.

The second is a Warning, which means the information, if not heeded could result in lose of aircraft or death of crew.

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #420947 - 01/20/16 04:48 PM

Good post Larry.

I believe that we lost at least 1 (and perhaps 2) P-3 aircraft during training flights with two engines on the same side set at zero thrust -and in the early days with one actually feathered. Flying with just about max power on the other two engines could get you into a situation of close to VMC air -and a quick departure and upset. I know that one did get an upset, flat spin, and the FE restared an engine and the aircraft recovered close to the ground with very high "G" forces. I don't think that aircraft ever flew again

The USN S-2 that I flew had a short body and a big tail (rudder), which was augmented by an additional part of the rudder that you used for slow flight. I never flew that aircraft any where near close to full ASW weight, torpedos, and 4 crewmembers. I don't think it had a fuel jettison system -but I assume you could drop some of the bombs or torpedoes.

Center line thrust was the norm with the B-727 -yes some rudder was needed with the loss of an outboard engine but not like the B-757/747 or the USN P-3. Yes, that old Neptune P-2 also had a big rudder.

Watched some A-10 training flights today while shopping at the BX at Davis-Monthan. As someone mentioned, those engines are not on the centerline for sure.

Regards,

Dux


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Center Line Thrust [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #420948 - 01/20/16 05:05 PM

Interesting. It seems to be based entirely on having or not having a Vmc
specification. I wonder about the spookier stuff like F-117 or F-22, where
the military might want as little hard data as possible out in the civilian
world.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Center Line Thrust [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #420949 - 01/20/16 05:05 PM

>>> but I assume you could drop some of the bombs or torpedoes.

Could make life way too interesting for waiting rescuers.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #420991 - 01/21/16 07:17 PM

Quote:

wanted to force civilian Warbird owners to disable their ejection seats




T'was a problem, indeed. When I was the Chief of Flight Safety at the CAF I had the KSFO unit appear before me to describe how they wanted to fly that newly restored T-33 (that many of you, I'm sure, have seen. Beautiful restoration, shiny/pristine/really great). The only problem, I quickly found out when questioning them was that it had cold seats and cold tips. Both! Either one was gonna be enuf for me to say NO! FAA requirement , they insisted! I could easily have some bad dreams if I didn't have that option back when I was flying T-birds. Can't recall what you USN guys called it, the "TV-2" or something like that? Anyhow, guess you'd share my feelings.. Anyhow, had a big argument with the feds over it, I really don't/didn't much care about their regs or something when it's MY rear end that's on the line, told them that. I have no idea today what they're doing with it, I quit. Gotta be able to get out or to get rid of a tip tank when I can't control the thing. Always will recall something (Bob Robins, one of the original Boeing test pilots on the B-29 told me once) in regard to max lateral fuel imbalance when I was in test pilot school -"Randy, when you lose control, you've just exceeded the limits".

best, randy


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #420992 - 01/21/16 07:27 PM

>> VMC air <<

Chuckle Dux, you remember that we had also a VMC(g) on the 747?

>>The USN S-2 that I flew had a short body and a big tail (rudder), which was augmented by an additional part of the rudder<<

Dux, did'ja know that we lost a Stoof (an N numbered one) at Reno when a chum had part of the rudder wired off?

best, randy


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #420994 - 01/21/16 07:42 PM

Randy,

My Army buddy who flies a civilian OV-1 said it had cold seats in it.

the other bill


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Tom Charlton
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 2221
Loc: The west coast of Florida
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #421011 - 01/22/16 09:27 PM

Quote:

The only problem, I quickly found out when questioning them was that it had cold seats . . .


Hi Randy and others,
Back in the mid 80s lost a friend to his Folland Gnat with cold seats. Cross country flight, ran out gas after going missed in the clag. IIRC it was determined / thought they might’a tried climbing overboard for a manual extraction. Seems also I recall they often landed on fumes just doing local circuits at KISM. Darned if’n I can even remember his name at the moment. Gary something? We both had sailboats over in Port Canaveral. Nice guy.

Regards,
Tom Charlton

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #421190 - 01/26/16 12:01 PM

Quote:

flies a civilian OV-1 said it had cold seats




Death wish!

best, randy


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Rick Cremer
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/30/04
Posts: 176
Loc: KSRQ
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #421301 - 01/29/16 06:01 PM

Quote:

This came up a number of years ago.

I think it was Rick Cremer who pointed out, the FAA considers any aircraft with fuselage mounted engines to be CLT.




I don't believe that "Rick Cremer" ever said that "the FAA considers any aircraft with fuselage mounted engines to be CLT."

I think that Rick Cremer would have said that the FAA's position is that the “Limited to Center Thrust” limitation is placed on a pilot certificate if the the airplane does not have a VMC speed published on the airplane’s Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) or in an approved AFM/POH. A speed determined during the certification process as defined in FARs 23.51 or 25.105 and 25.107.

Rick Cremer knows, for example, that his DC-9 AFM has a published Vmc(a) and Vmc(g) speed. He also knows that the Cesnna 337 does not have a published Vmc speed.

According the FAA's current guidance in its inspector's FSMIS the following military aircraft have CLT restrictions:

a) T-2B/C Rockwell Buckeye.
b) T-37 Cessna 318.
c) T-38 Northrop Talon.
d) F-4 McDonnell-Douglas Phantom.
e) F-111 General Dynamics F-111.
f) F-18 Northrop-McDonnell-Douglas Hornet.
g) A-6 Grumman American Intruder.
h) A-10 Fairchild Republic Thunderbolt II.
i) F-15 McDonnell-Douglas Eagle.
j) F-14 Grumman F-14.
k) F-117 Lockheed Stealth.
l) F-22 Boeing/McDonnell F-22.

You may read that information here:

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v05%20airman%20cert/chapter%2001/05_001_004rev1.htm

Best Regards

Rick Cremer
ATP DC-9

Edited by Rick Cremer (01/29/16 06:04 PM)


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Rick Cremer
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/30/04
Posts: 176
Loc: KSRQ
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #421303 - 01/29/16 06:50 PM

Quote:

Why am I not surprised to read of another disconnect between FAA and reality?




There is NO disconnect. The reality is that civil aircraft in the U.S. are certificated by the FAA in accordance with FARs 21, 23, 25, etc. and military aircraft are not.

The FAA has no idea how military aircraft are certified. Nor, to be honest, did we give a rats ass.

The FAA relies on the manufacturers of military aircraft to tell the FAA what standards the aircraft meet that are equivalent to the same standard in an FAR. If the standards are similar enough then the pilot of a military aircraft can get, for example, an equivalent civilian type rating based on military experience. E.g. a C-9 is a DC-9, a KC-135 is a B-707, a C-40 is a B-737, a C-130 is a L-382. But, in the case of many, if not most fighter jets, there is no equivalent standards and, more to the point, if the manufacturer has not determined what the Vmc speeds are for a particular multi-engine aircraft then the FAA will be generous and give the military pilot a multi-engine rating but will limit it to CLT.

It's up to the military manufacturer to determine what the Vmcg and Vmca is for a particular airplane if it has more than one engine. If the manufacturer does not publish those numbers then the FAA puts a CLT limitation on the aircraft in question. I have given you the current list in another thread.

Best


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Rick Cremer]
      #421321 - 01/30/16 08:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

This came up a number of years ago.

I think it was Rick Cremer who pointed out, the FAA considers any aircraft with fuselage mounted engines to be CLT.




I don't believe that "Rick Cremer" ever said that "the FAA considers any aircraft with fuselage mounted engines to be CLT."

I think that Rick Cremer would have said that the FAA's position is that the “Limited to Center Thrust” limitation is placed on a pilot certificate if the the airplane does not have a VMC speed published on the airplane’s Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) or in an approved AFM/POH. A speed determined during the certification process as defined in FARs 23.51 or 25.105 and 25.107.

Rick Cremer knows, for example, that his DC-9 AFM has a published Vmc(a) and Vmc(g) speed. He also knows that the Cesnna 337 does not have a published Vmc speed.

According the FAA's current guidance in its inspector's FSMIS the following military aircraft have CLT restrictions:

a) T-2B/C Rockwell Buckeye.
b) T-37 Cessna 318.
c) T-38 Northrop Talon.
d) F-4 McDonnell-Douglas Phantom.
e) F-111 General Dynamics F-111.
f) F-18 Northrop-McDonnell-Douglas Hornet.
g) A-6 Grumman American Intruder.
h) A-10 Fairchild Republic Thunderbolt II.
i) F-15 McDonnell-Douglas Eagle.
j) F-14 Grumman F-14.
k) F-117 Lockheed Stealth.
l) F-22 Boeing/McDonnell F-22.

You may read that information here:

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v05%20airman%20cert/chapter%2001/05_001_004rev1.htm

Best Regards

Rick Cremer
ATP DC-9




Thanks for the clarification.

Did you see where I posted data from the A-10 flight manual that, while it does not say Vmc, talks about loss of control under certain airspeed?

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #421344 - 01/30/16 03:14 PM

Quote:

loss of control




Heck man, at BPs today we discussed a few guys we know that can do that even without being in an airplane! <g>

best, randy


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