AVSIG: Center Line Thrust wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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AVSIG Discussion Sections >> FAA Topics

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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #420947 - 01/20/16 04:48 PM

Good post Larry.

I believe that we lost at least 1 (and perhaps 2) P-3 aircraft during training flights with two engines on the same side set at zero thrust -and in the early days with one actually feathered. Flying with just about max power on the other two engines could get you into a situation of close to VMC air -and a quick departure and upset. I know that one did get an upset, flat spin, and the FE restared an engine and the aircraft recovered close to the ground with very high "G" forces. I don't think that aircraft ever flew again

The USN S-2 that I flew had a short body and a big tail (rudder), which was augmented by an additional part of the rudder that you used for slow flight. I never flew that aircraft any where near close to full ASW weight, torpedos, and 4 crewmembers. I don't think it had a fuel jettison system -but I assume you could drop some of the bombs or torpedoes.

Center line thrust was the norm with the B-727 -yes some rudder was needed with the loss of an outboard engine but not like the B-757/747 or the USN P-3. Yes, that old Neptune P-2 also had a big rudder.

Watched some A-10 training flights today while shopping at the BX at Davis-Monthan. As someone mentioned, those engines are not on the centerline for sure.

Regards,

Dux


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Center Line Thrust [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #420948 - 01/20/16 05:05 PM

Interesting. It seems to be based entirely on having or not having a Vmc
specification. I wonder about the spookier stuff like F-117 or F-22, where
the military might want as little hard data as possible out in the civilian
world.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Center Line Thrust [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #420949 - 01/20/16 05:05 PM

>>> but I assume you could drop some of the bombs or torpedoes.

Could make life way too interesting for waiting rescuers.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #420991 - 01/21/16 07:17 PM

Quote:

wanted to force civilian Warbird owners to disable their ejection seats




T'was a problem, indeed. When I was the Chief of Flight Safety at the CAF I had the KSFO unit appear before me to describe how they wanted to fly that newly restored T-33 (that many of you, I'm sure, have seen. Beautiful restoration, shiny/pristine/really great). The only problem, I quickly found out when questioning them was that it had cold seats and cold tips. Both! Either one was gonna be enuf for me to say NO! FAA requirement , they insisted! I could easily have some bad dreams if I didn't have that option back when I was flying T-birds. Can't recall what you USN guys called it, the "TV-2" or something like that? Anyhow, guess you'd share my feelings.. Anyhow, had a big argument with the feds over it, I really don't/didn't much care about their regs or something when it's MY rear end that's on the line, told them that. I have no idea today what they're doing with it, I quit. Gotta be able to get out or to get rid of a tip tank when I can't control the thing. Always will recall something (Bob Robins, one of the original Boeing test pilots on the B-29 told me once) in regard to max lateral fuel imbalance when I was in test pilot school -"Randy, when you lose control, you've just exceeded the limits".

best, randy


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #420992 - 01/21/16 07:27 PM

>> VMC air <<

Chuckle Dux, you remember that we had also a VMC(g) on the 747?

>>The USN S-2 that I flew had a short body and a big tail (rudder), which was augmented by an additional part of the rudder<<

Dux, did'ja know that we lost a Stoof (an N numbered one) at Reno when a chum had part of the rudder wired off?

best, randy


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #420994 - 01/21/16 07:42 PM

Randy,

My Army buddy who flies a civilian OV-1 said it had cold seats in it.

the other bill


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Tom Charlton
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 2221
Loc: The west coast of Florida
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #421011 - 01/22/16 09:27 PM

Quote:

The only problem, I quickly found out when questioning them was that it had cold seats . . .


Hi Randy and others,
Back in the mid 80s lost a friend to his Folland Gnat with cold seats. Cross country flight, ran out gas after going missed in the clag. IIRC it was determined / thought they might’a tried climbing overboard for a manual extraction. Seems also I recall they often landed on fumes just doing local circuits at KISM. Darned if’n I can even remember his name at the moment. Gary something? We both had sailboats over in Port Canaveral. Nice guy.

Regards,
Tom Charlton

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #421190 - 01/26/16 12:01 PM

Quote:

flies a civilian OV-1 said it had cold seats




Death wish!

best, randy


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Rick Cremer
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/30/04
Posts: 176
Loc: KSRQ
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #421301 - 01/29/16 06:01 PM

Quote:

This came up a number of years ago.

I think it was Rick Cremer who pointed out, the FAA considers any aircraft with fuselage mounted engines to be CLT.




I don't believe that "Rick Cremer" ever said that "the FAA considers any aircraft with fuselage mounted engines to be CLT."

I think that Rick Cremer would have said that the FAA's position is that the “Limited to Center Thrust” limitation is placed on a pilot certificate if the the airplane does not have a VMC speed published on the airplane’s Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) or in an approved AFM/POH. A speed determined during the certification process as defined in FARs 23.51 or 25.105 and 25.107.

Rick Cremer knows, for example, that his DC-9 AFM has a published Vmc(a) and Vmc(g) speed. He also knows that the Cesnna 337 does not have a published Vmc speed.

According the FAA's current guidance in its inspector's FSMIS the following military aircraft have CLT restrictions:

a) T-2B/C Rockwell Buckeye.
b) T-37 Cessna 318.
c) T-38 Northrop Talon.
d) F-4 McDonnell-Douglas Phantom.
e) F-111 General Dynamics F-111.
f) F-18 Northrop-McDonnell-Douglas Hornet.
g) A-6 Grumman American Intruder.
h) A-10 Fairchild Republic Thunderbolt II.
i) F-15 McDonnell-Douglas Eagle.
j) F-14 Grumman F-14.
k) F-117 Lockheed Stealth.
l) F-22 Boeing/McDonnell F-22.

You may read that information here:

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v05%20airman%20cert/chapter%2001/05_001_004rev1.htm

Best Regards

Rick Cremer
ATP DC-9

Edited by Rick Cremer (01/29/16 06:04 PM)


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Rick Cremer
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/30/04
Posts: 176
Loc: KSRQ
Re: Center Line Thrust [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #421303 - 01/29/16 06:50 PM

Quote:

Why am I not surprised to read of another disconnect between FAA and reality?




There is NO disconnect. The reality is that civil aircraft in the U.S. are certificated by the FAA in accordance with FARs 21, 23, 25, etc. and military aircraft are not.

The FAA has no idea how military aircraft are certified. Nor, to be honest, did we give a rats ass.

The FAA relies on the manufacturers of military aircraft to tell the FAA what standards the aircraft meet that are equivalent to the same standard in an FAR. If the standards are similar enough then the pilot of a military aircraft can get, for example, an equivalent civilian type rating based on military experience. E.g. a C-9 is a DC-9, a KC-135 is a B-707, a C-40 is a B-737, a C-130 is a L-382. But, in the case of many, if not most fighter jets, there is no equivalent standards and, more to the point, if the manufacturer has not determined what the Vmc speeds are for a particular multi-engine aircraft then the FAA will be generous and give the military pilot a multi-engine rating but will limit it to CLT.

It's up to the military manufacturer to determine what the Vmcg and Vmca is for a particular airplane if it has more than one engine. If the manufacturer does not publish those numbers then the FAA puts a CLT limitation on the aircraft in question. I have given you the current list in another thread.

Best


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