AVSIG: OSH Tower Closing wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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Reams Goodloe
Top Gun


Reged: 05/07/04
Posts: 2582
Loc: Kent, Washington
OSH Tower Closing
      #365471 - 03/24/13 01:18 AM


>>>>
FAA Contract Tower Closure List
(149 FCTs)
3‐22‐2013
LOC
ID Facility Name City State
JVL SOUTHERN WISCONSIN RGNL JANESVILLE WI
LSE LA CROSSE MUNI LA CROSSE WI
MWC LAWRENCE J TIMMERMAN MILWAUKEE WI
OSH WITTMAN RGNL OSHKOSH WI<<<


YIKES !!!!

The OSH/Airventure crowd should be fun without a tower, eh ????


- Reams-


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Denny Cunningham
Top Gun


Reged: 09/01/01
Posts: 915
Loc: Gold Canyon, AZ
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #365474 - 03/24/13 03:20 AM

Quote:



The OSH/Airventure crowd should be fun without a tower, eh ????

- Reams-




Nah, the feds will staff the tower for OSH (and Sun 'N' Fun, which starts two days after the LAL tower is scheduled to close), same as always. Only difference may be that the event organizers get a "cost recovery" invoice afterwards.

NASCAR has been paying for temporary towers on race weekends for years, and most special events are supposed to pay their own way. But the FAA has tended to be lax about collecting such fees for aviation events, particularly when run by a non-profit.

That may change, which will be unfortunate for smaller events such as the Copperstate Fly-In, where I run Air Ops. For the last eleven years, the local FAA folks have found a way to cover the personnel costs for our three-day temporary tower without charging us. If they can't do that this year, we'll probably be tower-free-- the fee for an event like ours runs between $10,000 and $15,000, which is beyond our budget.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #365485 - 03/24/13 11:48 AM

Closing Donaldson in Greenville too. Where I stop to see my daughter. Not normally a problem but coming in one night near minimums on the ILS, sure was nice to have yhem there.
Obviously, approach dpacing will change in bad weather. This is next to class C at Greer.

Dave


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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
Top Gun


Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 1857
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #365563 - 03/25/13 01:49 PM

Dave - in our area, Executive (KRBD) and McKinney (KTKI). TKI is often quite busy, RBD not so much. I was surprised that Greenville (KGVT) wasn't on the list. FlightAware used to have data and graphs on the number airport operations but I can't find it now.

Mac


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John Gaitskill, 0A7
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 1412
Loc: hendersonville, nc
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #365568 - 03/25/13 02:11 PM

I wondered which Greenville tower. I hadn't looked closely at the list, but our local paper just said Greenville tower was closing, not which airport. Was GMU on the list also?

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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #365571 - 03/25/13 03:07 PM

The Real Bill can verify this, but it seems the FAA used a similar opportunity to close a bunch of towers back in 1981.

the other bill

Edited by Bill Bridges - T47 (03/25/13 03:11 PM)


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #365579 - 03/25/13 04:11 PM

Quote:

The Real Bill can verify this, but it seems the FAA used a similar opportunity to close a bunch of towers back in 1981.

the other bill




They actually closed just a handful, and most of those have since re-opened as contract operations. One of the objectives in '81 was to prove to the union and the public that the strike actually had few consequences. Patently untrue if you were able to look behind the curtain, but facility closures would have given away the game.

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther

Edited by B. Butler (Oregonian) (03/25/13 04:12 PM)


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
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Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: John Gaitskill, 0A7]
      #365583 - 03/25/13 04:46 PM

John, my Daughter told me it was Donaldson (GYH), but I haven't verified.
GVT which is Greenvill, TX has a lot of government contract work going on, that may have played a role in it staying open. It's part time now.

Dave


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


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Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #365585 - 03/25/13 05:13 PM

A Google search will show several article about Donaldson Tower in Greenville closing.

Best,

Dave


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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
Top Gun


Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 1857
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #365614 - 03/25/13 11:25 PM

I heard somewhere, probably here, that every state in the union has a Greenville, which is true of no other town name.

Mac


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Mac Tichenor (DAL)]
      #365615 - 03/26/13 12:10 AM

Quote:

I heard somewhere, probably here, that every state in the union has a Greenville, which is true of no other town name



Can't find one in Hawaii, Alaska, or Washington. I quite looking after that.

When flying, if a passenger asks you are you can always tell them "near Springfield." If they ask again later tell them, "over Columbus." Let them try to prove you wrong!

I found an article that said that the most common name is Riverside, found in all states except Hawaii, Alaska, Louisiana, and Oklahoma. The runner up was Centerville in 45 states, followed by Fairview (43 states), Franklin (42), Midway (40), Fairfield (39), Pleasant Valley (39), Troy (39), Liberty (38), and Union (38). Springfield isn't even in the top ten (only 35 states have a Springfield).



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Ward Miller POU-NY
Top Gun


Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 10508
Loc: New York
OSH Tower Closing [Re: Mac Tichenor (DAL)]
      #365623 - 03/26/13 06:09 AM

Mac, in at least Tennessee, it is Greeneville, with a fourth "e".

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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #365625 - 03/26/13 07:29 AM

The FAA list says GYH.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Joe Budge (W29)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 7423
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Mac Tichenor (DAL)]
      #365626 - 03/26/13 07:52 AM

Quote:

I heard somewhere, probably here, that every state in the union has a Greenville, which is true of no other town name.




No joy when I google map Greenville, MD. But I do get a listing of all the doctors in Greenville, NC. <g>

Regards,
Joe


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #365637 - 03/26/13 10:58 AM

Quote:

The FAA list says GYH.




Seems to be some confusion. This says Donaldson:
http://www.gsabusiness.com/news/47169-faa-tower-closing-could-hurt-business-recruitment?rss=0

This says three in SC: Hilton Head. Grand Strand and Donaldson.

http://www.charlestonbusiness.com/news/47166-faa-closing-3-control-towers-in-s-c?rss=0

Best,

Dave


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #365642 - 03/26/13 11:09 AM

On the FAA site, I downloaded a pdf that had four SC towers:
CRE Grand Strand; FLO Florence, GYH Donaldson; and HXD Hilton Head. Wonder if it's changed.

Scott: May I ask what your source is for Greenville Downtown?
Maybe there's been some changes.


Best,

Dave


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Kcid LlirreM
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 4768
Loc: Chuckey, TN
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #365643 - 03/26/13 11:20 AM

Quote:

Mac, in at least Tennessee, it is Greeneville, with a fourth "e".




Google often ignores that fourth "E" when giving search results.

And I found out if you tell Ashville approach that you want to go home to Greeneville, they will turn you the wrong way.


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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #365646 - 03/26/13 11:57 AM

Well, we would call most any river in the Western USA the "Snake River". Sometimes we were correct.

Regards,

Dux -and I cannot believe that the OSH tower will not be covered during the summer flying season get together.


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Geoff Sjostrom - Chicago
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 4312
OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #365649 - 03/26/13 12:29 PM

>>When flying, if a passenger asks you are you can always tell them "near
>>Springfield."

If I recall correctly, Ernest K. Gann's response to that question was to
point to the nearest bunch of lights or buildings and reply, "That is White
Pigeon."

Geoff


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Ward Miller POU-NY
Top Gun


Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 10508
Loc: New York
OSH Tower Closing [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #365657 - 03/26/13 01:23 PM

Dick, do an ADF on WGRV. <g>

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #365658 - 03/26/13 01:37 PM

Quote:

Dick, do an ADF on WGRV. <g>




Army Guard navigation (g).

Think I've related the story of being on duty to fly the one star one weekend. No heads up on where. I had maps from Charlotte area east( usually, they headed to Raliegh where state HQ was). He got in and wanted to go to HQ in Asheville. Flew west until I could tune in an Asheville A.M. station. When closer, called approach and asked for vectors to Guard HQ. Sounded like they were used to it (g).

Best,

Dave


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #365664 - 03/26/13 02:45 PM

I looked at an FAA pdf at faa.gov/news/media/fct_closed.pdf Got it last Friday.

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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Mac Tichenor (DAL)]
      #365682 - 03/26/13 08:58 PM

Mac,
>>>which is true of no other town name<<<

A looong time ago, on a game show (Art Linkletter?), someone was asked to name 5 states with the town of Madison. Contestant named 4. He then said there is a Madison in every state of the union.

so, maybe 2 towns..?
;-)

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Mac Tichenor (DAL)]
      #365683 - 03/26/13 09:16 PM

Whenever a passenger asks me where we are, I say "Greenville". Can't be far off.

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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
Top Gun


Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 1857
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #365692 - 03/27/13 12:08 AM

Larry -

>>Can't find one in Hawaii, Alaska, or Washington<<

Upon further investigation, I stand by my statement that I heard it somewhere.

But, given its inaccuracy, I take back the part about probably hearing it here. <g>

Mac


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Kcid LlirreM
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 4768
Loc: Chuckey, TN
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #365710 - 03/27/13 12:01 PM

Quote:

Dick, do an ADF on WGRV. <g>




Listen to them everyday. Nobody working there when you were there. I asked them.


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Ward Miller POU-NY
Top Gun


Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 10508
Loc: New York
OSH Tower Closing [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #365713 - 03/27/13 12:55 PM

>> Nobody working there when you were there. <<

Yeah, that was a few years ago -- maybe 1946, I think.


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C.L. Manno
AVSIG Member


Reged: 11/29/04
Posts: 1674
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #365856 - 03/28/13 11:22 PM

Just went in and out of HDN (Steamboat, CO) which has no tower, but quite a mix of jets and props.

I was more concerned about the migratory geese and 13K MSA.

On the plus side, I bet we'll all manage taxi in/out just fine without the usual micromanagement.

--------------------
Chris "Junior" Manno
http://www.JetHead.WordPress.com


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John Gaitskill, 0A7
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 1412
Loc: hendersonville, nc
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: C.L. Manno]
      #365932 - 03/29/13 05:04 PM

A couple of years ago, Paul Berge of AvWeb invited responses to the survey question: "What's the dumbest thing you've heard on CTAF?" He got about a 100 responses. http://www.avweb.com/news/skywrite/dumbest_ctaf_phraseology_205405-1.html?type=pf I hope the phraseology we'll hear at the newly uncontrolled, I mean, non-towered airports is short and sweet. I forgot we're supposed to stop using that term in favor of non-towered. I think someone thought "uncontrolled" suggested chaos.

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Gil Buettner [KAUW]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 2847
Loc: Gateway to the Northwoods
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: John Gaitskill, 0A7]
      #365971 - 03/29/13 11:36 PM

Quote:

I hope the phraseology we'll hear at the newly uncontrolled, I mean, non-towered airports is short and sweet. I forgot we're supposed to stop using that term in favor of non-towered. I think someone thought "uncontrolled" suggested chaos.




Sometimes I use "pilot-controlled" with folks not familiar.

--------------------
-Gil


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Anne Umphrey (KBED)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 12756
Loc: KBED
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: John Gaitskill, 0A7]
      #366057 - 03/31/13 10:58 AM

I hope this doesn't encourage the yahoos to start chatting on freq. That is a major issue in my book.
Anne

--------------------
You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky.
- Amelia Earhart, 1897 - 1937


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John Gaitskill, 0A7
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 1412
Loc: hendersonville, nc
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Anne Umphrey (KBED)]
      #366158 - 04/01/13 04:21 PM

On a rare occasion over the years, I've politely asked people to go to 122.75 for their conversations.

On a pretty Saturday morning in the Chicago area, 123.00 was almost worthless from the squeal of long winded traffic/life history announcements with 5-6 airports within range.

short and sweet I tell my students. Nobody cares what your whole registration number is, model and possibly color is sufficient.


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: John Gaitskill, 0A7]
      #366160 - 04/01/13 04:44 PM

Quote:

Nobody cares what your whole registration number is, model and possibly color is sufficient.



The FCC does.


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John Gaitskill, 0A7
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 1412
Loc: hendersonville, nc
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366215 - 04/02/13 09:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Nobody cares what your whole registration number is, model and possibly color is sufficient.



The FCC does.




At least no one in the pattern. . .

Wow! I didn't know anyone at the FCC is listening for an aircraft on CTAF that doesn't use the call sign? My plane hasn't had a radio station license in years.


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: John Gaitskill, 0A7]
      #366220 - 04/02/13 11:56 PM

Quote:

Wow! I didn't know anyone at the FCC is listening for an aircraft on CTAF that doesn't use the call sign? My plane hasn't had a radio station license in years.



It doesn't need an FCC license if operated in the US but that doesn't mean that you don't have to comply with FCC regs. FCC regs permit operation without the station license, or operator license, in the US but they do require the use of the full aircraft call-sign.

The reference is 47CFR87.107(a)(2).


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 1862
OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366243 - 04/03/13 12:07 PM

That says you have to use the full call sign for the station identification
but it doesn't seem to say that you need to use the full call sign on each
transmission or even when you need to use it?


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #366244 - 04/03/13 12:09 PM

Quote:

That says you have to use the full call sign for the station identification but it doesn't seem to say that you need to use the full call sign on each transmission or even when you need to use it?



It says that you can use a shortened call-sign when it is initiated by the ground station (ATC). I don't see any other exceptions.


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366250 - 04/03/13 01:22 PM

OK, but when must you use a call-sign? As long as you meet that requirement, you can probably get away with a shortened call sign at other points in the conversation.

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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Russell Holton]
      #366255 - 04/03/13 02:33 PM

Quote:

As long as you meet that requirement, you can probably get away with...



You can probably get away with a lot of things. I was discussing what the regulation requires. Using your aircraft color and make, as was suggested, doesn't seem to me to fulfill that requirement even though it likely fulfills the needs of the pilot's operating at, and around, the airport.


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366258 - 04/03/13 03:33 PM

At OSH they bust that rule wide open.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366261 - 04/03/13 04:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

As long as you meet that requirement, you can probably get away with...



You can probably get away with a lot of things. I was discussing what the regulation requires. Using your aircraft color and make, as was suggested, doesn't seem to me to fulfill that requirement even though it likely fulfills the needs of the pilot's operating at, and around, the airport.




I come from a background of amateur radio communications. There, you are required to give your FCC callsign every 10 minutes in a conversation and at the end of the conversation. For VHF communication, it's not necessary to give the callsign on each transmission. But none of that prevents you from using a "tactical" call sign (such as "Aid station 3") in addition to the FCC-issued callsign.

So, applying the same logic - when are you required to give the FCC-approved callsign? Because I'm thinking as long as you give what is required by the FCC, you have met the letter of the law.


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #366263 - 04/03/13 04:42 PM

Quote:

At OSH they bust that rule wide open.



Only if you fail to read, "(4) An aircraft identification approved by the FAA for use by aircraft stations participating in an organized flying activity of short duration."


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366267 - 04/03/13 06:03 PM

Larry,

You are good!

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
OSH Tower Closing [Re: Russell Holton]
      #366273 - 04/03/13 08:10 PM

A little common sense doesn't hurt, either. There were two 11Ms based at PNE
once upon a time. Full callsigns with emphasis on the first two digits made
obvious sense.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #366284 - 04/03/13 09:18 PM

Quote:

You are good!



Isn't that why you bought me all those Cracker Barrel breakfasts?


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 1862
OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366289 - 04/03/13 09:36 PM

Agreed that you can use a shortened call sign on occasion, but I still don't
see anything that says you can't make a transmission without using your
callsign.

The broadcast stations apparently only have to identify themselves a certain
number of times per hour <?>.


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #366300 - 04/03/13 10:33 PM

Quote:

Agreed that you can use a shortened call sign on occasion, but I still don't see anything that says you can't make a transmission without using your callsign.



Neither do I. All I see are requirements for how you must identify when you do identify. "White Cessna" doesn't seem to fit in there anywhere unless it is, "N12345, a white Cessna, ..."


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366302 - 04/03/13 10:51 PM

Quote:

"N12345, a white Cessna, ..."




According to the link given upstream, "N" is to be left out.


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Russell Holton]
      #366303 - 04/03/13 11:23 PM

Quote:

According to the link given upstream, "N" is to be left out.



It's either "Cessna 12345" or "N12345". Just like the AIM.


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366312 - 04/04/13 07:27 AM

Ok, that's the rule. Can't cheat unless you know 'em (apologies to Ross R).

"Now hear this, you may return to sensible prior practices, that is all".


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #366318 - 04/04/13 10:48 AM

Quote:

Can't cheat unless you know 'em



Yeah, that's fine. I'm just not a fan of each pilot coming up with their own "improvements" on the procedures in the AIM, etc., especially with regard to radio communications. Things would work a lot better if everyone simply followed the applicable recommendations and standards.

In the international flying that I do, the standards change every time I fly into a different country. I do my best to follow the AIM procedures in the US and ICAO procedures everywhere else with whatever local deviations are applicable. Bahrain Control, Mumbia Radio, and Chicago Center don't benefit from me showing off how I think they should be doing it.


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Gil Buettner [KAUW]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 2847
Loc: Gateway to the Northwoods
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #366321 - 04/04/13 11:25 AM

Quote:


The broadcast stations apparently only have to identify themselves a certain
number of times per hour <?>.




Just one time per hour, as close to the top of the hour as possible. Can be visual only for television. Call letters and city of license. You can name other cities in the ID but you must name the city of license.

--------------------
-Gil


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366324 - 04/04/13 11:54 AM

OK, I'll use my call sign in Bahrain. <G>

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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Gil Buettner [KAUW]]
      #366336 - 04/04/13 01:49 PM

Quote:

Just one time per hour, as close to the top of the hour as possible. Can be visual only for television. Call letters and city of license. You can name other cities in the ID but you must name the city of license.



Of course, with a broadcast station you have one station transmitting continuously. On a VHF aircraft advisory frequency you could have dozens of different stations transmitting in a relatively short time period.

I looked through the other aviation section in the FCC Title and couldn't find anything which addressed the frequency that station identification is required. I did find a reference to the applicable FAA procedures (forget the exact wording) and the AIM says that the identification should be included with every transmission.


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366337 - 04/04/13 01:55 PM

Quote:

Of course, with a broadcast station you have one station transmitting continuously. On a VHF aircraft advisory frequency you could have dozens of different stations transmitting in a relatively short time period.




And, a broadcast station transmits on it's assigned frequency. But in aviation, the frequency used could be anywhere on the dial and doesn't help in identifying who is transmitting.


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Anne Umphrey (KBED)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 12756
Loc: KBED
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #366495 - 04/07/13 05:56 PM

The tower at BED has been known to broadcast a warning that there are two aircraft on freq with similar call signs. It helps.
Anne

--------------------
You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky.
- Amelia Earhart, 1897 - 1937


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
OSH Tower Closing [Re: Anne Umphrey (KBED)]
      #366507 - 04/07/13 08:27 PM

I think that's required of controllers. At "pilot-controlled" fields, at
least two pilots have to recognize the situation and handle it appropriately.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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John Gaitskill, 0A7
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 1412
Loc: hendersonville, nc
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #366515 - 04/07/13 09:20 PM

I sometimes say "red and white Cessna downwind," instead of my number.

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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: John Gaitskill, 0A7]
      #366574 - 04/08/13 05:10 PM

Some of the patterns I have seen are so wide abeam that you would be hard pressed to distinguish colors.

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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Anne Umphrey (KBED)]
      #366579 - 04/08/13 06:59 PM

Quote:

The tower at BED has been known to broadcast a warning that there are two aircraft on freq with similar call signs. It helps.
Anne




Not just a good idea; it's required.

2-4-15. EMPHASIS FOR CLARITY

Emphasize appropriate digits, letters, or similar sounding words to aid in distinguishing between similar sounding aircraft identifications. Additionally:

a. Notify each pilot concerned when communicating with aircraft having similar sounding identifications.

EXAMPLE-
“United Thirty-one United, Miami Center, U.S. Air Thirty-one is also on this frequency, acknowledge.”

“U.S. Air Thirty-one U.S. Air, Miami Center, United Thirty-one is also on this frequency, acknowledge.”


--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #366588 - 04/08/13 09:06 PM

Billprime,

I was IFR with ZFW late one evening inbound to KFSI from the west. ZFW got into a pretty heated discussion with an AA-5 because the AA-5 wanted to call himself "American" instead of "Grumman". The Center controller was not seeing any humor in it. Is this one of those flights that ends up with a meeting with someone from GATO for the AA-5 pilot?

the other bill


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #366590 - 04/08/13 09:35 PM

Quote:

Billprime,
Is this one of those flights that ends up with a meeting with someone from GATO for the AA-5 pilot?

the other bill




Improbable. Despite what your GA pilot believes, the Air traffic guys have little knowledge of the Flight standards guys and the FS guys regard AT guys as overpaid "groundlings" (thanks C. Manno<g>) unlikely that AT would seek AF assistance; more unlikely they would get it.

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther

Edited by B. Butler (Oregonian) (04/08/13 09:36 PM)


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #366604 - 04/08/13 11:05 PM

Quote:

U.S. Air Thirty-one is also on this frequency



Is that anything like a Cactus? :)


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #366605 - 04/08/13 11:07 PM

Back in the late 1980s I was flight instructing in Prescott, AZ. I was checking out a guy in a C-172 who was an America West B737 pilot. He was having a heck of a time saying "Cessna..." and instead kept saying "Cactus...". Eventually the tower controller, who knew the airplane's call-sign well, gave up and started replying in kind. :)

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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366606 - 04/08/13 11:33 PM

Quote:

He was having a heck of a time saying "Cessna..." and instead kept saying "Cactus...".




It's a common occurrence...well, maybe common is an overstatement, but it happens and the prevailing wisdom among controllers it that it's code for, "I'm a real pilot, even if I'm in this pissy little airplane. <No g>

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther

Edited by B. Butler (Oregonian) (04/08/13 11:55 PM)


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #366607 - 04/09/13 12:13 AM

Quote:

the prevailing wisdom among controllers it that it's code for, "I'm a real pilot, even if I'm in this pissy little airplane. <No g>



So when a controller on clearance delivery calls himself "XYZ Tower" by mistake it's really not a mistake but some kinda code to let us know that he's a fully-qualified controller and not a developmental?

You get into the habit of using the same call sign prefix hundreds of times a month and once in a while you go out in a "Cessna" instead of a "United" and all of a sudden it's a code when you slip and say your airline's prefix?

Not picking on you, Bill. That may be "prevailing" but it isn't "wisdom".


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366608 - 04/09/13 12:16 AM

Quote:

That may be "prevailing" but it isn't "wisdom".




<G>

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366609 - 04/09/13 12:18 AM

Quote:


So when a controller on clearance delivery calls himself "XYZ Tower" by mistake it's really not a mistake but some kinda code to let us know that he's a fully-qualified controller and not a developmental?




Quite the contrary, it probably means he got promoted this week and he is a developmental.

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #366610 - 04/09/13 12:28 AM

Quote:

Quite the contrary, it probably means he got promoted this week and he is a developmental.



Now that's funny....


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366611 - 04/09/13 12:29 AM

How many people after working a few days at a job suddenly start answering their phone at home with the "work greeting"? <g>

I think it's the same thing. It's a habit. A part of the brain's "autopilot". It's normally a good thing - until the situation changes to make the habit a liability.

And I've always seen it as part of aviation's safety culture to develop good habits that always work. Things that may seem like extra work but will save you some day. Perhaps it's never to walk though a prop arc - even when the engine is stopped.


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #366612 - 04/09/13 12:37 AM

Quote:

Larry,

You are good!




Over the years I've learned not to challenge Yrral on the "rules." Ya gotta have the rules nailed to know that what is legal may not be safe, or what is safe may not be legal....

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Russell Holton]
      #366614 - 04/09/13 12:50 AM

I must confess it took me àwhile to stop answering the phone OZARK instead of TWA, and TWA instead of AMERICAN....

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Mac Tichenor (DAL)
Top Gun


Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 1857
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366616 - 04/09/13 01:12 AM

>>having a heck of a time saying "Cessna..." << Flightplan.com has a program through which you can use a "dot com xxxx" call sign if you file your flight plan through them. I tried it a few weeks ago in the plane I've been flying exclusively for five years. It _did_ take quite an effort to stop myself from answering with my N#. But I had even more trouble recognizing a call to my call sign. I guess it's a skill you develop, but I'm impressed that it doesn't seem to happen often to you call sign users.

On this flight, another guy on the frequency asked, "Center, what airline is dot com?" Center: "I don't know. I think they're a cargo hauler or something." The other guy: "Well, whoever they are, they must be growing fast - I hear dot com all the time lately."

Mac


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #366630 - 04/09/13 11:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

He was having a heck of a time saying "Cessna..." and instead kept saying "Cactus...".




It's a common occurrence...well, maybe common is an overstatement, but it happens and the prevailing wisdom among controllers it that it's code for, "I'm a real pilot, even if I'm in this pissy little airplane. <No g>




We're "Executive Jet" domestically and "NXXXQS" internationally. It takes about 4 frequency changes and a sticky note on the panel to get it right.


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Anne Umphrey (KBED)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 12756
Loc: KBED
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366665 - 04/09/13 05:09 PM

When I began learning to fly airplanes, I would make the call, Helicopter, er, Cessna 123.....

The tower would chuckle and say HelicopterCessna 123 yadda-yadda, etc.

They never let me forget it either, when I'd bring them cookies. Sure wish it was easy to do that now.

Anne

--------------------
You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky.
- Amelia Earhart, 1897 - 1937


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Anne Umphrey (KBED)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 12756
Loc: KBED
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366666 - 04/09/13 05:12 PM

A long time ago I gave Dave Gwinn a tour of Boston in my R22. He would talk right over the ATC communications. When I mentioned it, he said, oh, he was only hearing them if they called TWA....

I gently reminded him that I had to hear all the communications so I would know where the other aircraft in the city were.

Dave was such a fun guy to fly with. He is still missed.
Anne

--------------------
You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky.
- Amelia Earhart, 1897 - 1937


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Anne Umphrey (KBED)]
      #366672 - 04/09/13 06:29 PM

Quote:

The tower would chuckle and say HelicopterCessna 123 yadda-yadda, etc.



Many one of these? :)



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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366698 - 04/10/13 07:13 AM

Certified IFR, and all crushed..? Did any survive the crusher?

Found this at Wiki.

Quote:

Approximately 50 machines were built before Cessna ended their venture into helicopters. Most of the aircraft built were bought back and scrapped by Cessna, and the type certificate was revoked, presumably to remove any liability to Cessna for continued operation of any copies they could not retrieve. The Army Aviation Museum at Fort Rucker, Alabama has a YH-41A Seneca prototype (serial number 56-4244) as a part of its collection, although it is not currently on display.[7]





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_CH-1

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...

Edited by Jeff Hartmann (EQY/SVH) (04/10/13 07:18 AM)


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Jeff Hartmann CIC]
      #366713 - 04/10/13 10:50 AM

Quote:

Certified IFR, and all crushed..?



In fact, I remember reading that it was the first helo certified IFR. But that came from Cessna, so there might be some careful wordsmithing there...

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Anne Umphrey (KBED)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 12756
Loc: KBED
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #366716 - 04/10/13 11:21 AM

That is a great story of the rise and fall of Cessna's attempt to get into the helicopter market and trying to get the military interested.

Anne

--------------------
You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky.
- Amelia Earhart, 1897 - 1937


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Anne Umphrey (KBED)]
      #366763 - 04/10/13 07:06 PM

Quote:

rise and fall of Cessna's attempt to get into the helicopter market
Anne




Try'n to remember now, was it called a "53"?

best, randy


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #367833 - 04/26/13 12:23 PM

The Senate passed a bill last night exempting controllers from being furloughed and it was then sent to the House. The House has been debating it all morning and are set to vote within the next hour or two. If the bill passes, which it seem to be on track to, then all of the furloughs will be done. One thing that they have said is that it does NOT mean that the contract towers will reopen. It is ONLY for FAA Controllers and that the FCT will be subject to whatever the agency decides to do with them. Yesterday it was said that they would not be reopened, but time will tell.

Best,

Dave


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #367837 - 04/26/13 12:41 PM

House passed it, too.

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Bob Dubner
Super Imperial Member


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 4759
Loc: Extreme Upper West Side
OSH Tower Closing [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #367867 - 04/26/13 07:15 PM

Makes one wonder if perhaps Members of Congress are heavy users of the
commercial aircraft system, and would find themselves discommoded by the
delays and restrictions.

Nah, that can't be it. They couldn't possibly just simply make laws
depending on what inconvenciences them, now could they?


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Bob Dubner]
      #367941 - 04/27/13 11:08 PM

Getting barraged by every aviation lobbyist in town might have had something to do with it...

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Reams Goodloe
Top Gun


Reged: 05/07/04
Posts: 2582
Loc: Kent, Washington
Re: OSH Tower Closing [Re: Bob Dubner]
      #367999 - 04/29/13 01:21 AM


*******
Nah, that can't be it. They couldn't possibly just simply make laws
depending on what inconvenciences them, now could they?
******

No profit in that.
You can bank on the fact that some serious lobbying efforts inevitably involved parallel campaign contributions for the next election cycle....

- Reams-


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