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Dean Gibson [PAE]
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Logging cross country time?
      #252944 - 06/29/09 03:28 PM

When (what date) did the various cross country logging requirements for ratings change from 25nm to 50nm?

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Sean Franklin
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #252946 - 06/29/09 03:35 PM

It was 50 when I was a new pilot in 2004, so prior to then. Not much help I'm sure ;-)

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Dean Gibson [PAE]
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Sean Franklin]
      #252956 - 06/29/09 03:58 PM

Well, it certainly was earlier than 1997-08-04; that's when other major FAR changes were made, and there is no historical reference to the change, so it had to be before that.

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Joe Budge (W29)
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #253011 - 06/29/09 09:43 PM

Quote:

Well, it certainly was earlier than 1997-08-04; that's when other major FAR changes were made, and there is no historical reference to the change, so it had to be before that.




My Piper Private Pilot Manual (c) 1983 lists the 50-NM requirement.

Regards,
Joe


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Dean Gibson [PAE]
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Joe Budge (W29)]
      #253095 - 06/30/09 01:59 PM

Quote:

My Piper Private Pilot Manual (c) 1983 lists the 50-NM requirement.




Are you sure? Here's the exchange I had with AOPA:

Quote:

Does anyone at AOPA know when (what date) the various cross country logging requirements for pilot ratings, changed from 25nm to 50nm? I'm working on a logbook program (see https://www.airmen.aero ) that detects cross-country time by the distance between airports, and I'd like to accurately reflect cross-country requirements as of the date of each flight.




Quote:

Hello
Thank you for contacting AOPA. August 4th of 1997 the new regulations went into effect.

Best regards,
Chris Prichett
Aviation Technical Specialist
Government Affairs –Pilot Information Center
800-USA-AOPA




Quote:

Thanks; however, someone on AVSIG.com mentioned that the "new" requirement is in his 1983 pilot materials, so it had to be before that. In December 1975 when I took my ATP written, the requirement was only 25 miles, so it had to be after that.

So it's somewhere between 1976 and 1983.




Quote:

I checked the 1996 and 1997 hard copy of the FAR/AIM and they had the old regulation listed. When I checked 1998 it had been changed. Before this time FAR 61.93 listed the requirements for students performing cross country flights and this was changed in the 1998 version leading me to believe the August date is likely the correct one.
I checked the 1997-98 versions once again and for a student pilot (cross country time towards a certificate or rating) the distance is listed as greater than 25nm.

Best regards,
Chris Prichett
Aviation Technical Specialist
Government Affairs –Pilot Information Center
800-USA-AOPA




However, the FAA NPRM on the 1997-08-04 changes (FAA-2006-26661-0001 - see http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/Co...contentType=pdf ), indicates several changes (see change #89) from "at least 50 nautical miles" to "more than 50 nautical miles" for part 141 to conform to 61.1(b)(3)(ii), indicating to me that the "50 mile" change was probably already in place at 61.1(b)(3)(ii).

Edited by Dean Gibson [PAE] (06/30/09 03:31 PM)


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Sean Franklin
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #253124 - 06/30/09 07:19 PM

Quote:

for a student pilot (cross country time towards a certificate or rating) the distance is listed as greater than 25nm.



I recall that as a student pilot my cross-country distance was 25+nm in 2004. However that was strictly for requirements of a private certificate. Once I had my private, I could only record 50nm+ flights as CC for purposes of meeting the minimums for an instrument rating.

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Mat Waugh
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Reged: 05/19/04
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Sean Franklin]
      #253155 - 07/01/09 01:57 AM

Quote:


I recall that as a student pilot my cross-country distance was 25+nm in 2004. However that was strictly for requirements of a private certificate. Once I had my private, I could only record 50nm+ flights as CC for purposes of meeting the minimums for an instrument rating.




Not for an airplane Private certificate. The 25NM is for multiple solo sign-offs, but the cross-countries in 2004 were 50+NM with a landing. I did many of them, and was intimate with airports just over 50NM from RDU.

I did my Private in about 1988/9 and I did 50+NM cross-countries, but that's merely a data point, I don't know when it changed.

Fun fact - the RWI airport is less than 50NM from RDU, but the TYI VOR that makes up the VOR approach at RWI is MORE than 50NM, so if you're counting your ATP hours this can be relevant. Then I got a charter job and stopped caring :-)

Mat


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Dean Gibson [PAE]
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #253201 - 07/01/09 02:08 PM

Quote:

However, the FAA NPRM on the 1997-08-04 changes (FAA-2006-26661-0001 - see http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/Co...contentType=pdf ), ...



I need to read better. The above is a Feb. 2007 NPRM on CORRECTING minor issues in the 1997 changes. Further communications with AOPA reveal that the change was in 1997.

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Cole Loftus [C89]
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #253254 - 07/01/09 08:14 PM

It was well before 1997. The 50 nm requirement was in effect when I got my
private in 1988. A 1973 Jeppesen/Sanderson commercial text shows 50 nm as
the requirement for x/c time for the commercial flight test. The oldest book
I have, the 1969 FAA Flight Instructor's Handbook, does not address the
regulation directly, but includes a syllabus allowing at least three hours
for the first dual x/c flight, including 3 landings. One might infer 50 nm
from this.

Keep in mind that the x/c flight requirements may have varied by certificate,
and also that some or all changes may apply retroactively.


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Tom Henderson (KOXR/SoCal)
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Mat Waugh]
      #253354 - 07/02/09 05:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:


I recall that as a student pilot my cross-country distance was 25+nm in 2004. However that was strictly for requirements of a private certificate. Once I had my private, I could only record 50nm+ flights as CC for purposes of meeting the minimums for an instrument rating.




Not for an airplane Private certificate. The 25NM is for multiple solo sign-offs, but the cross-countries in 2004 were 50+NM with a landing. I did many of them, and was intimate with airports just over 50NM from RDU.

I did my Private in about 1988/9 and I did 50+NM cross-countries, but that's merely a data point, I don't know when it changed.

Fun fact - the RWI airport is less than 50NM from RDU, but the TYI VOR that makes up the VOR approach at RWI is MORE than 50NM, so if you're counting your ATP hours this can be relevant. Then I got a charter job and stopped caring :-)

Mat




I concur with Mat.

When I took my PP checkride in the Spring of 1997, the requirement was 50nm.

The text I used for my PP studies was published in 1996 and lists the 50 nm requirement as well.

One more data point.

-TH


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Anne Umphrey (KBED)
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Tom Henderson (KOXR/SoCal)]
      #253382 - 07/02/09 01:59 PM

Yes, my cross-countries were 50 NM for the Private rating. I know that because in the helicopter the requirement is 25 NM. I couldn't do the same route when I went for the airplane rating as I had done in the helicopter.

Anne

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- Amelia Earhart, 1897 - 1937


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Dean Gibson [PAE]
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Cole Loftus [C89]]
      #253627 - 07/04/09 05:14 PM

Note that the original question was the distance requirement for GENERAL cross-country logging for a rating, NOT the requirements for a SPECIFIC cross-country for a specific rating (eg, the commercial certificate requires a 350nm cross-country, but that is not the requirement for all cross-countries for that certificate).

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Joe Budge (W29)
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #253995 - 07/07/09 01:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My Piper Private Pilot Manual (c) 1983 lists the 50-NM requirement.




Are you sure? Here's the exchange I had with AOPA...

Quote:

I checked the 1996 and 1997 hard copy of the FAR/AIM and they had the old regulation listed. When I checked 1998 it had been changed. Before this time FAR 61.93 listed the requirements for students performing cross country flights and this was changed in the 1998 version leading me to believe the August date is likely the correct one.
I checked the 1997-98 versions once again and for a student pilot (cross country time towards a certificate or rating) the distance is listed as greater than 25nm.

Best regards,
Chris Prichett
Aviation Technical Specialist
Government Affairs –Pilot Information Center
800-USA-AOPA







Sorry about the delay in responding - I've been off-grid for a while. Your correspondent at AOPA is looking at the wrong regulation. 61.93 discusses the requirements for a student pilot to make any flight to an airport other than the airport of takeoff. 61.109 describes the aeronautical experience requirements for a Private Pilot Airplane rating and has the 50-mile rule.

Like some others here I received my PPSEL in '89. The text we used (referenced above) was last updated in '83. It was actually a Jepp manual private-labelled by Piper. My '84 copy of Kershner says the same thing.

FWIW, the Piper/Jepp manual was previously updated in '77 and '79. The change from when you received your ticket in '76 probably happened in (or just before) one of those years.

Regards,
Joe


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Cole Loftus [C89]
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #254098 - 07/08/09 02:06 AM

I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me. Your response sounds as though
you thought I didn't answer your question.

I gave you the answer for 1988 private pilot requirements, as well as 1973
commercial pilot requirements, and then added a little older info I had,
for you to draw what inferences you chose.


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Cole Loftus [C89]
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #254114 - 07/08/09 04:24 AM

I did a bit more homework, out of curiosity, on www.gpoaccess.gov/cfr.

Apparently it was in 1997 that the cross-country distance requirements for
certificates were consolidated in 61.1, and removed from the "aeronautical
experience" sections for the several certificates, where they resided
previously.

You can review the 1/1/07 regs and compare them to the 1/1/98 regs to see the
differences. FARs are under Title 14 at the above web site. These are the
earliest regs I saw on that web site. Older regs may be available in printed
versions on other sites, or in archives at law libraries or large public
libraries.

The only reference to a 25nm distance for cross-country that I've run across
is in old versions of 61.93, which sets out requirements for CFI endorsements
for cross-country flights. This reg states specifically that it uses
"cross-country" to mean over 25nm, but restricts this definition for use only
in application of 61.93.


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Dean Gibson [PAE]
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Cole Loftus [C89]]
      #254758 - 07/11/09 03:16 PM

Quote:

Your response sounds as though you thought I didn't answer your question.



It was a general comment to the thread, not directed to your response.

I found my (Jeppesen) June 1995 copy of the FARs, and I note there:

1. The FAR regarding logging of flight time doesn't even mention cross-country, let alone a definition of it.

2. The Private and Commercial Pilot (Airplane) requirements are for cross-countries to have on landing at a point more than 50nm from the departure point.

3. The ATP (Airplane) requirement has no distance specified.

As to when the above 50nm requirement changed from 25nm, I can't say, although 25nm was the requirement when I got my Private and Commercial certificates in 1967 & 1968, respectively.

So, I can't say what the AOPA guy was looking at, because I see no 25nm mention in the June 1995 FAR 61, other than in the "Student/Recreational Pilot" section.

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Tom Henderson (KOXR/SoCal)
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #254878 - 07/12/09 03:45 AM

Hi Dean-

I'm wondering... why is knowing when the regulation changed of interest?

I know you are developing logbook software.

But anybody sitting for an exam today will need to satisfy today's regs.

I suppose you could use it to verify that somebody actually satisfied the requirements on the day that he/she took the checkride. But that doesn't seem like a feature very many folks would use.

Just wondering....

-TH


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Cole Loftus [C89]
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #255070 - 07/13/09 09:30 PM

OK.

In the different FAR versions I've looked at, I haven't found a mention of
cross-country in 61.51 for any year, either.

Your 1995 version sounds the same as my 1988 version.

An interesting point is that the 50nm is specified for solo cross-country
flights, but not for dual, in the private requirements in 61.109(a) for
1988. In my limited experience of that time, I recall that 50nm was always
used, though.

I've been keeping my eyes open on my trips to used book stores, and if I see
any ancient FARs, I'll look this up.


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Dean Gibson [PAE]
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Tom Henderson (KOXR/SoCal)]
      #265009 - 09/16/09 03:18 AM

Quote:

Hi Dean-

I'm wondering... why is knowing when the regulation changed of interest?

I know you are developing logbook software.

But anybody sitting for an exam today will need to satisfy today's regs.

I suppose you could use it to verify that somebody actually satisfied the requirements on the day that he/she took the checkride. But that doesn't seem like a feature very many folks would use.

Just wondering....

-TH



I was curious because I added a logbook feature that computes XC hours based on the distance between landing points, and I was considering qualifying the 25/50nm requirement by effective date, so that my logbook summary would show that I had 500+ XC hours (based on the 25nm requirement) when I took my ATP ride.

It turned out to be too much of a hassle, and so now my logbook summary shows two columns for XC hours: one based on a landing at a different airport [the 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(i) definition, and is what my paper logbook shows], and one based on a leg of more than 50nm [the 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(ii & vi) definition for meeting rating requirements].

With these two computations, I had 883 and 387 XC hours, respectively, when I took my ATP ride. Of course, I met the 500+ requirement (based on 25nm) at the time of that ride.

Note that certain other FAR requirements for XC time (eg, 14 CFR 135 & 141) are not for a rating, and for those, the 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(i) definition is operative.

The difference is substantial, especially for CFIs. For me, it's now 2045 vs 1170 hours.

--------------------
Airman data & and aviation biography


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Terry Carraway
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #267238 - 10/06/09 02:15 PM

I know I asked about this back in the 80s, as flying the A-10 (as most fighter flights) we would take off and land at the same airport, but may do many hundreds of miles in between.

I was told at the time, for purposes of logging for the ATP, that if you navigated from one place to another, even if you didn't land at the other place, you were doing cross country.

That is how I have logged it.

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Cole Loftus [C89]
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #267745 - 10/10/09 12:21 AM

I believe the current rule is >50 nm, no landing required, for ATP airplane.
Rotorcraft have a different rule, using 25 nm, don't know about other
differences.

Should be in FAR 61.1.


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Mark Kolber (TTA/NC)
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Cole Loftus [C89]]
      #273790 - 11/21/09 01:39 PM

Quote:

OK.

In the different FAR versions I've looked at, I haven't found a mention of
cross-country in 61.51 for any year, either.


I think that because the definition of cross country depends so much on what the time is going to be used for and people may opt to keep multiple cross country logbook columns, the FAA left it out of 61.51 and decided to go with definitions instead.

In terms of the date issue, I have a 1975 FAA Legal opinion that talks in terms of the 50 nm requirement for cross country flights, suggesting that the change took place in a 1973 FAR revision:

==============================
July 1, 1975
Ms. Mary Lynne Curtis

Dear Ms. Curtis:

This is in response to your letter of April 18, 1975, and Mr. Bornarthe's note to the Chief Counsel dated June 16, 1975, concerning the term "cross-country" as used in Sections 61.65 and 61.155 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (in your letter you inadvertently cited Section 61.55).

Under Part 61 in effect prior to November 1, 1973, cross-country flying was used in the aeronautical experience requirements applicable to private and commercial pilot certificates to provide that a cross-country flight requires a landing more than 25 nautical miles from the place of departure, unless otherwise specifically stated. Revised Part 61, effective November 1, 1973, adopted a minimum cross-country distance provision requiring a landing more than 50 nautical miles from the point of departure under the solo flight time requirements for a private pilot certificate with an airplane rating (see Section 61.109(b)(2)). Also, as part of the revision of Part 61, the cross-country distance for an applicant for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane rating was changed from a landing more than 25 nautical miles from the point of departure to 50 nautical miles in the case of pilot in command flight time (see Section 61.129(b)(3)(ii)).

In view of the general upgrading of requirements intended by the revision of Part 61, and in light of the above changes, it is our opinion that the terms "cross-country flying" and "cross-country flight time" require flights involving a landing at a point more than 50 miles from the point of departure, unless otherwise specifically stated. Consequently, the provision in Section 61.65(e)(1) for 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, requires those hours to be obtained during flights involving a landing more than 50 nautical miles from the point of departure. In addition, Section 61.65(c)(4) requires that the applicant for the flight test for an instrument rating must have had instruction in cross-country flying including one trip of 250 nautical miles.

With respect to Section 61.155, paragraph (b)(1) thereof requires 100 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command by an applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate. Paragraph (b)(2)(i) requires that of the 1500 hours total flight time as a pilot required therein, 500 hours must be cross-country flight time. Again, these hours must have been obtained during flights involving a landing more than 50 nautical miles from the point of departure.

I trust that this satisfactorily responds to your inquiry. If we can be of further assistance, please let us know.

Sincerely,
ORIGINAL SIGNED BY
R.G. LEARY
for DEWEY R. ROARK, JR.
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Codification Division
Office of the Chief Counsel
==============================

--------------------
Mark Kolber
www.midlifeflight.com


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Terry Carraway
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Mark Kolber (TTA/NC)]
      #273895 - 11/22/09 11:51 AM

Great.

But I think they dropped the requirement for a landing 50 miles away later for ATP experience. When I asked in the 80s, a flight involving navigation to a location over 50 miles away from takeoff, and returning would count.

This helped me log military time, where we would fly 100 - 150 miles away and return, without landing at the far point. Same with patrol type guys, 8 hour flight takeoff and landing at the same place, but LOTS of cross country in between. :

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Cole Loftus [C89]
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Mark Kolber (TTA/NC)]
      #274002 - 11/23/09 06:14 AM

Hello, stranger. Haven't seen your byline for a while.

That looks like the info Dean was looking for.


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Mark Kolber (TTA/NC)
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Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Cole Loftus [C89]]
      #274399 - 11/26/09 11:14 PM

Hi Cole. For some reason unknown to even me, I haven't checked in here for a while.

--------------------
Mark Kolber
www.midlifeflight.com


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