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Anne Umphrey (KBED)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 12756
Loc: KBED
Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Tom Henderson (KOXR/SoCal)]
      #253382 - 07/02/09 09:59 AM

Yes, my cross-countries were 50 NM for the Private rating. I know that because in the helicopter the requirement is 25 NM. I couldn't do the same route when I went for the airplane rating as I had done in the helicopter.

Anne

--------------------
You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky.
- Amelia Earhart, 1897 - 1937


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Dean Gibson [PAE]
Public Guest


Reged: 06/05/05
Posts: 263
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Cole Loftus [C89]]
      #253627 - 07/04/09 01:14 PM

Note that the original question was the distance requirement for GENERAL cross-country logging for a rating, NOT the requirements for a SPECIFIC cross-country for a specific rating (eg, the commercial certificate requires a 350nm cross-country, but that is not the requirement for all cross-countries for that certificate).

--------------------
Airman data & and aviation biography


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Joe Budge (W29)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 7423
Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #253995 - 07/07/09 09:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

My Piper Private Pilot Manual (c) 1983 lists the 50-NM requirement.




Are you sure? Here's the exchange I had with AOPA...

Quote:

I checked the 1996 and 1997 hard copy of the FAR/AIM and they had the old regulation listed. When I checked 1998 it had been changed. Before this time FAR 61.93 listed the requirements for students performing cross country flights and this was changed in the 1998 version leading me to believe the August date is likely the correct one.
I checked the 1997-98 versions once again and for a student pilot (cross country time towards a certificate or rating) the distance is listed as greater than 25nm.

Best regards,
Chris Prichett
Aviation Technical Specialist
Government Affairs –Pilot Information Center
800-USA-AOPA







Sorry about the delay in responding - I've been off-grid for a while. Your correspondent at AOPA is looking at the wrong regulation. 61.93 discusses the requirements for a student pilot to make any flight to an airport other than the airport of takeoff. 61.109 describes the aeronautical experience requirements for a Private Pilot Airplane rating and has the 50-mile rule.

Like some others here I received my PPSEL in '89. The text we used (referenced above) was last updated in '83. It was actually a Jepp manual private-labelled by Piper. My '84 copy of Kershner says the same thing.

FWIW, the Piper/Jepp manual was previously updated in '77 and '79. The change from when you received your ticket in '76 probably happened in (or just before) one of those years.

Regards,
Joe


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Cole Loftus [C89]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 2291
Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #254098 - 07/07/09 10:06 PM

I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me. Your response sounds as though
you thought I didn't answer your question.

I gave you the answer for 1988 private pilot requirements, as well as 1973
commercial pilot requirements, and then added a little older info I had,
for you to draw what inferences you chose.


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Cole Loftus [C89]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 2291
Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #254114 - 07/08/09 12:24 AM

I did a bit more homework, out of curiosity, on www.gpoaccess.gov/cfr.

Apparently it was in 1997 that the cross-country distance requirements for
certificates were consolidated in 61.1, and removed from the "aeronautical
experience" sections for the several certificates, where they resided
previously.

You can review the 1/1/07 regs and compare them to the 1/1/98 regs to see the
differences. FARs are under Title 14 at the above web site. These are the
earliest regs I saw on that web site. Older regs may be available in printed
versions on other sites, or in archives at law libraries or large public
libraries.

The only reference to a 25nm distance for cross-country that I've run across
is in old versions of 61.93, which sets out requirements for CFI endorsements
for cross-country flights. This reg states specifically that it uses
"cross-country" to mean over 25nm, but restricts this definition for use only
in application of 61.93.


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Dean Gibson [PAE]
Public Guest


Reged: 06/05/05
Posts: 263
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Cole Loftus [C89]]
      #254758 - 07/11/09 11:16 AM

Quote:

Your response sounds as though you thought I didn't answer your question.



It was a general comment to the thread, not directed to your response.

I found my (Jeppesen) June 1995 copy of the FARs, and I note there:

1. The FAR regarding logging of flight time doesn't even mention cross-country, let alone a definition of it.

2. The Private and Commercial Pilot (Airplane) requirements are for cross-countries to have on landing at a point more than 50nm from the departure point.

3. The ATP (Airplane) requirement has no distance specified.

As to when the above 50nm requirement changed from 25nm, I can't say, although 25nm was the requirement when I got my Private and Commercial certificates in 1967 & 1968, respectively.

So, I can't say what the AOPA guy was looking at, because I see no 25nm mention in the June 1995 FAR 61, other than in the "Student/Recreational Pilot" section.

--------------------
Airman data & and aviation biography


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Tom Henderson (KOXR/SoCal)
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Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 588
Loc: Ventura, CA
Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #254878 - 07/11/09 11:45 PM

Hi Dean-

I'm wondering... why is knowing when the regulation changed of interest?

I know you are developing logbook software.

But anybody sitting for an exam today will need to satisfy today's regs.

I suppose you could use it to verify that somebody actually satisfied the requirements on the day that he/she took the checkride. But that doesn't seem like a feature very many folks would use.

Just wondering....

-TH


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Cole Loftus [C89]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 2291
Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #255070 - 07/13/09 05:30 PM

OK.

In the different FAR versions I've looked at, I haven't found a mention of
cross-country in 61.51 for any year, either.

Your 1995 version sounds the same as my 1988 version.

An interesting point is that the 50nm is specified for solo cross-country
flights, but not for dual, in the private requirements in 61.109(a) for
1988. In my limited experience of that time, I recall that 50nm was always
used, though.

I've been keeping my eyes open on my trips to used book stores, and if I see
any ancient FARs, I'll look this up.


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Dean Gibson [PAE]
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Reged: 06/05/05
Posts: 263
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Tom Henderson (KOXR/SoCal)]
      #265009 - 09/15/09 11:18 PM

Quote:

Hi Dean-

I'm wondering... why is knowing when the regulation changed of interest?

I know you are developing logbook software.

But anybody sitting for an exam today will need to satisfy today's regs.

I suppose you could use it to verify that somebody actually satisfied the requirements on the day that he/she took the checkride. But that doesn't seem like a feature very many folks would use.

Just wondering....

-TH



I was curious because I added a logbook feature that computes XC hours based on the distance between landing points, and I was considering qualifying the 25/50nm requirement by effective date, so that my logbook summary would show that I had 500+ XC hours (based on the 25nm requirement) when I took my ATP ride.

It turned out to be too much of a hassle, and so now my logbook summary shows two columns for XC hours: one based on a landing at a different airport [the 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(i) definition, and is what my paper logbook shows], and one based on a leg of more than 50nm [the 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(ii & vi) definition for meeting rating requirements].

With these two computations, I had 883 and 387 XC hours, respectively, when I took my ATP ride. Of course, I met the 500+ requirement (based on 25nm) at the time of that ride.

Note that certain other FAR requirements for XC time (eg, 14 CFR 135 & 141) are not for a rating, and for those, the 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(i) definition is operative.

The difference is substantial, especially for CFIs. For me, it's now 2045 vs 1170 hours.

--------------------
Airman data & and aviation biography


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Logging cross country time? [Re: Dean Gibson [PAE]]
      #267238 - 10/06/09 10:15 AM

I know I asked about this back in the 80s, as flying the A-10 (as most fighter flights) we would take off and land at the same airport, but may do many hundreds of miles in between.

I was told at the time, for purposes of logging for the ATP, that if you navigated from one place to another, even if you didn't land at the other place, you were doing cross country.

That is how I have logged it.

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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