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Paul Millner [OAK]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 675
Loc: Oakland CA
Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure
      #444621 - 11/07/17 11:42 PM

I was a bit taken aback departing Henderson NV (HND) this last week... it was severe VFR, but we were headed north to Beatty and thence over the Sierra, so I was hoping for some help with negotiating the Bravo... probably could have done better skimming the bottom of each segment, but alas.

Anyway, got our clearance from Ground, and then the taxi instructions. Halfway to the runway, Ground interrogated us roughly, "N177SD, verify that you can maintain your own terrain and obstacle clearance!" WTH? Hmmm. "Ground, I can meet the minimum climb specified in the ODP... and we'll be making our climb in VFR conditions. "That's not good enough. I need you to verify you can maintain terrain and obstacle clearance!" Hmmm, OK honey, I thought... "Affirmative!"

Of course, they're not about to let us fly the ODP, "climbing right turn to LAS Vortac..." Instead, we get runway heading then RV. Of course, they don't bother telling us what the MIA is, so we have no idea how close to Mexico they need to take us for the turn northbound.

How are we supposed to verify if they don't take us the routing we're given on paper?!

After departure, Tower handed us to Departure... they said maintain runway heading, and they'd turn us "shortly"... "Before we encounter the rocks?" "Well, that's the plan." After a while, it became apparent there were rocks in our future, so I sidestepped slightly to the right to avoid, and advised Departure we were maneuvering to avoid terrain.

That upset the boy... "If you can't maintain clearance from terrain, we'll have to take you back to the airport or something." Not sure what something is, but I often wonder about that option... all the way back to high school, when I was sometimes asked, "Are you gay or something?!" Tell me more about the something, optionality is good!

But I digress. "Well, no, Departure, we *are* maintaining terrain clearance. Just thought I'd let you know that strict compliance with your heading wasn't hacking it."

"I can't turn you until 6,000 feet." OK, that works... so climb away we did, and reaching 6,000' received the first in a series of circuitous vectors, until we requested and received direct Beatty (BTY).

So what is that goat roping exercise all about? Should I just tell them next time I'm planning the ODP, direct the VOR in the middle of the primary Bravo airport? Jeesh.

Paul


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Paul Millner [OAK]]
      #444626 - 11/08/17 11:07 AM

Well, that's a bit discouraging. Asking if you can maintain terrain clearance when you don't know the routing doesn't work. You said you planned to fly the ODP which is what should be expected. If they have alternative routing, that should be stated. I'd call their quality control folks and see where they take it.
Sorry this happened to you. Thankfully, you had the visibility to see you were clear.


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Paul Millner [OAK]]
      #444641 - 11/08/17 12:53 PM

Quote:

......So what is that goat roping exercise all about? .......




Maybe Mr. Dunham will be around shortly to add some clarity to this? :))

Bill


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Tom Charlton
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 2221
Loc: The west coast of Florida
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #444645 - 11/08/17 01:15 PM

Quote:

Thankfully, you had the visibility to see you were clear.


Hi Dave and Paul,

Jeez –a- ree! Contemplating if this had been in da clag!

What Dave said: Give’em a ring.

Regards,
Tom Charlton

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Paul Millner [OAK]]
      #444661 - 11/08/17 05:07 PM

Was this an IFR departure? What did you file and what was your initial clearance?

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John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]
Top Gun


Reged: 09/13/01
Posts: 5059
Loc: Minnesota
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #444680 - 11/08/17 10:36 PM

Quote:

Was this an IFR departure? What did you file and what was your initial clearance?




I assume it was this flight.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N177SD/history/20171101/1700Z/KHND/KOAK


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Paul Millner [OAK]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 675
Loc: Oakland CA
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #444685 - 11/09/17 09:54 AM

Filed SHEAD BTY LIDAT RBRTS CAINS BBUBB

Cleared as filed

Paul


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]
      #444707 - 11/09/17 11:57 PM

Yeah, I saw that...just wanted to make sure I had my facts straight...but thanks!

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Paul Millner [OAK]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 675
Loc: Oakland CA
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #444987 - 11/19/17 08:42 AM

Let me know what you discover! And thanks!

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Kcid LlirreM
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 4768
Loc: Chuckey, TN
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]
      #444991 - 11/19/17 09:25 AM

Anyway to pull up the atc audio?

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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
Loc: 9S1
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #445002 - 11/19/17 12:54 PM

Quote:

Anyway to pull up the atc audio?




You might try LiveATC, they archive a lot of stuff.

Bill


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Richard Palm (PAO)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 5388
Loc: PUDBY
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #445203 - 11/24/17 01:43 AM

Quote:

Anyway to pull up the atc audio?




Unfortunately, the LiveATC feed for LAS Approach scans a number of frequencies, but I did find some of the conversation about 23 or 24 minutes into this recording:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/klas/KLAS-App1-Nov-01-2017-1830Z.mp3

The controller refers to a need to maintain a minimum climb gradient, but if the pilot is going to be assigned a specific routing without being informed of it on the ground, I don't know how the heck they think the pilot can know in advance what climb gradient will be needed and determine whether he will be able to maintain terrain clearance.


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Paul Millner [OAK]]
      #445220 - 11/24/17 01:06 PM

I'm still checking on some stuff, but it appears that they're trying to have it both ways. They can't put the onus on an IFR pilot to maintain terrain/obstruction separation without giving said pilot the latitude to maneuver as necessary to do that, and the ODP is effectively useless since they'll probably only allow it at 4 AM.

Instead they seem to want to tell the pilot what to do via their radar vectors below the MVA, while blaming the pilot if that turns out to not work so well.

No. Bad radar doggie. Rolled up newspaper across nose for that.

They need to develop one of: a diverse vector area that allows them to be responsible for their own actions, or an ODP that they can live with, or a SID that they can assign to GA aircraft.

The semantic war described by Paul could have probably been fixed by a pilot request to "climb VFR through 8000" or whatever seemed right. In that case, you're accepting a VFR restriction that takes the controller off the hook for IFR terrain, obstruction, and aircraft separation below 8000 feet. It's not quite the same thing as noticing that you'll be IN VFR conditions through at least 8000: so is everybody else, but that doesn't absolve ATC of having to provide full IFR services anyway. By asking to climb VFR through 8000, you're effectively relinquishing your IFR clearance until 8000, which substantially reduces what the controller is obliged to do.


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #445221 - 11/24/17 01:13 PM

Scott,

Im too lazy too look it up, but my memory is that that whole "provide your own..." phraseology is only about an IFR pop-up and would be wildly inappropriate for a departure clearance. Has that changed?

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #445224 - 11/24/17 03:25 PM

There's "The way you do it when at an airport providing ATC service", and "The way you do it at airports that don't have ATC service", and "The way you handle pop-ups. LAS TRACON seems to have confused the three, or maybe they handle KHND departures as zero-AGL popups. :-)

7110.65X, 4-3-2 - Departure Clearances
...
c.
Departure Procedures.
1. Specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading to be flown after takeoff as follows:
(a)Locations with Airport Traffic Control Service [...like KHND...]

Specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading as necessary, consistent with published departure procedures (DP) or diverse vector areas (DVA), where applicable.
NOTE - If an initial heading is assigned in lieu of an assigned/filed Pilot Nav SID, and an ODP is published for that runway, pilots may commence turn after reaching a safe altitude or they may complete the ODP instructions for obstacle clearance, based on the regulations they are operating under before turning to the assigned heading.

...

At all other airports; [like, not KHND...]
Do not specify direction of takeoff/turn after takeoff. If necessary to specify an initial heading to be flown after takeoff, issue the initial heading so as to apply only within controlled airspace.

Compatibility with a procedure issued may be verified by asking the pilot if items obtained/solicited will allow him/her to comply with local traffic pattern, terrain, or obstruction avoidance.

PHRASEOLOGY:

FLY RUNWAY HEADING.
DEPART (direction or runway).
TURN LEFT/RIGHT.
WHEN ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE (instruction), FLY HEADING (degrees) UNTIL REACHING (altitude, point, or fix) BEFORE
PROCEEDING ON COURSE.

FLY A (degree) BEARING/AZIMUTH FROM/TO (fix)
UNTIL (time),
or
UNTIL REACHING (fix or altitude),
and if required,
BEFORE PROCEEDING ON COURSE.
EXAMPLE:
“Verify right turn after departure will allow compliance with local traffic pattern,”or “Verify this clearance will allow compliance
with terrain or obstruction avoidance.”

Or maybe they're confused about clearing aircraft off the ground and issuing popup IFR clearances as described in 4-2-8, IFR-VFR and VFR-IFR Flights:

1. Before issuing a clearance, ask if the pilot is able to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance during a climb to the minimum IFR altitude.

PHRASEOLOGY:
(Aircraft call sign), ARE YOU ABLE TO MAINTAIN YOUR OWN TERRAIN AND OBSTRUCTION CLEARANCE UNTIL REACHING (appropriate MVA/MIA/MEA/OROCA)

NOTE:
Pilots of pop-up aircraft are responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance until reaching minimum instrument altitude (MIA) or minimum en route altitude (MEA). Pilot compliance with an approved FAA procedure or an ATC instruction transfers that responsibility to the FAA; therefore, do not assign (or imply) specific course guidance that will (or could) be in effect below the MIA or MEA.

EXAMPLE:
“November Eight Seven Six, are you able to provide your own terrain and obstruction clearance between your present altitude and six thousand feet?”


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Paul Millner [OAK]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 675
Loc: Oakland CA
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #445844 - 12/15/17 12:19 AM

So Scott... if one were to encounter such weirdness again, whether at Henderson NV or elsewhere (I guess Las Vegas Henderson, if you want to find the darn place in the approach plate "book"), what would you as PIC have said?

I'm thinking, "F you... departing VFR..."

Paul


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Paul Millner [OAK]]
      #445853 - 12/15/17 10:48 AM

I was a little slow getting on this, but I talked to their TRACON procedures guy (I know him from a previous investigation - smart dude) and he’s looking at what they do with HND - no answer yet. Under the circumstances they didn’t give you a lot of good options except to “agree”, but as far as I can tell they’re not running a legal operation the way you described it. He confirmed that they don’t have a “diverse vectoring area” established that would allow them to assign headings off the ground, so without assigning an alternative obstacle SID or use of the standard ODP, they’re kind of stuck dumping it on pilots....except they can’t really do that, either.

What they specifically can’t do at a towered airport is have it both ways, where you’re responsible for their heading.

As a possibly acceptable out on a nice day, you could request a VFR climb through XXX altitude, which should alleviate all of their traffic and terrain concerns below XXX. They might even let you turn on course sooner, depending on what’s going on with traffic above XXX. Unfortunately, not all controllers are fully aware of how to use VFR restrictions so you might get some unexpected responses...

More to follow...


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Paul Millner [OAK]]
      #445856 - 12/15/17 01:05 PM

OK, so after a long chat with LAS TRACON...

The tower LOA with the TRACON requires them to ask if you'll accept terrain/obstruction clearance, which is why you got the question. Based on my reading of the 7110, that isn't actually legal, but...

They're kind of stuck. There's an RNAV SID off of 35, but it has a serious minimum climb gradient that you probably couldn't make anyway. They only use it for jets. I did ask them to look at the possibility of building a transition to that SID off 17, maybe 3 miles out to a DME fix or something and then a 180 back to rejoin the SID route. That would give departures to the south a few extra flying miles and allow them to use a flatter gradient. Dunno if that's going to get anywhere...

They say they've been around and around with the south departure issue and HQ told them they could do what they're doing. I still think they're wrong because they're essentially issuing an illegal vector below the MVA, but this has turned into "the way we always do it" because their alternative is "you're not going."

They did look at a replay and review the whole event, and commented that you were climbing slower than they would have expected (possibly so you could keep the nose down and watch the approaching rocks?) You were apparently about 6 miles from the rocks when the fun started. If you had said something about the terrain before turning, they would have probably turned you west to a 260 heading or so through the gap out that way.

So...if your future travel plans include Henderson, you could probably do what I said earlier: ask for a VFR climb through 6000 or so, or ask for a "visual climb over the airport" (about the same thing without actually going anywhere).


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #445858 - 12/15/17 03:47 PM

Concur. VFR to get around the tall rock just west of ELP to join V12
westbound works great and ATC is fine with it. They're actually happy and
relieved if you request it.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #445875 - 12/15/17 09:32 PM

If, it’s VFR. How does one depart IMC?

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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #445876 - 12/15/17 09:38 PM

You might ask them what they do (or used to do) with she Henderson traffic during the Netjets poker tournament. There were several very weird departures (all jets, of course), but they were very complicated.

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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


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Posts: 6008
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Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #445879 - 12/15/17 11:13 PM

Quote:

If, it’s VFR. How does one depart IMC?




In an "H" model it's not a problem, it'll do 3,000 fpm to 10 grand. :))))))

Bill


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #445880 - 12/16/17 09:06 AM

In ELP, if it's IMC, it's likely a thunderstorm or a tornado. You probably
would not want to go.

Assuming benign IMC, you would need a SID or vectors.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #445891 - 12/16/17 06:44 PM

LAS is screaming VFR about 350 days a year, so they don’t encounter that issue much...that’s part of how they get away with doing what they’re doing.

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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #445900 - 12/17/17 05:58 AM

Quote:

LAS is screaming VFR about 350 days a year, so they don’t encounter that issue much...that’s part of how they get away with doing what they’re doing.



I was in LAS for nearly a year in 1990. I saw LAS IFR exactly once. 2SM in blowing dust!


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #445902 - 12/17/17 11:26 AM

Sometime in the last year and a half or so, we were given a ground stop from Bozeman to LAS. We refiled to north las vegas, hoping thing would open up. Ended up with an ILS landing in North Las Vegas. talk about weird, Las Vegas in fog. I think it stayed for a day or two.

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #445903 - 12/17/17 01:11 PM

Yup, it doesn't happen much. I understand the TRACON gets pretty messed up when they can't just do everything visually: having to apply radar in-trail spacing and speed control instead of just "See that guy? Follow him!"

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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #445908 - 12/17/17 04:21 PM

Quote:

TRACON gets pretty messed up when they can't just do ..."See that guy? Follow him!"




I once fam'd into PHX like that, landing up-sun in "3 miles" HK from forest fires. Very scary: "Do you see him yet?"

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #445915 - 12/17/17 11:09 PM

You would have enjoyed this L30 discussion: they kind of understand that this operation isn't legal, but they "got an interpretation" from someone higher up the food chain saying that they could do it, and they've been doing it forever. Ther heart is in the right place (they're trying to provide the service instead of just saying "no"...) but it amounts to vectoring below the MVA with no legal way to do it. I'm pretty sure the "interpretation" followed from "What would you like the answer to be?" I've seen those before...

THey really need a flyable ODP or obstacle SID - they apparently can't get a DVA approved.


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
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Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #445929 - 12/18/17 12:08 PM

Quote:

they kind of understand that this operation isn't legal,




What's going to happen when someone rolls one up in a ball out there and some smart lawyer finds this out?

Bill


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #445934 - 12/18/17 01:00 PM

Quote:

What's going to happen when someone rolls one up in a ball out there and some smart lawyer finds this out?




Uncle Sam opens his wallet.

The real question might be what happens in the goat rope. Would anyone get dinged given the interpretation?


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Las Vegas Weirdness - KHND Departure [Re: Russell Holton]
      #445963 - 12/18/17 11:14 PM

Wouldn’t even take a real smart lawyer - average ought to do it. “Interpretation” just moves the responsibility elsewhere in the FAA - they’d probably still eat a settlement if this resulted in a CFIT.

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