AVSIG: Class E Airspace Question wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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AVSIG Discussion Sections >> Air Traffic Control

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Tom Charlton
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 2221
Loc: The west coast of Florida
Re: Sectional Chart [Re: Denny Cunningham]
      #440000 - 06/27/17 11:05 AM Attachment (77 downloads)

Quote:

Turns out, there are actually six (!) different types of Class E airspace, E1 through E6


Hi Denny,
Ha . . . who knew? (Rhetorical question)<grin>

Depiction of KALW and 9W2 on sectional chart:


Regards,
Tom Charlton (who doesn’t get no stinking specials with his Piper Cub)

Edited by Tom Charlton (06/27/17 11:07 AM)


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 1862
Re: Sectional Chart [Re: Tom Charlton]
      #440001 - 06/27/17 12:19 PM

Just to make it more fun, looking at 9W2 in Foreflight, a remark posted there states "no opns durg periods walla walla offl wx report indcs conds below vfr mins unless spl vfr atc clnc is rcvd prior to entering ctlz or depg airport".

No way to tell when this was created or by whom, or why. Wouldn't seem to be regulatory as far as I can tell anyway. It doesn't appear in the A/FD. I don't know where Foreflight gets the "Comments" it shows. Could this have been created in response to the FAA inquiry about the flight in question?

But interesting in this discussion.

Andy


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Kcid LlirreM
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 4768
Loc: Chuckey, TN
Re: Sectional Chart [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #440002 - 06/27/17 12:40 PM

the fact that it mentions control Zone (ctlz) makes me wonder if the FAA is even involved.

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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: Denny Cunningham]
      #440006 - 06/27/17 01:18 PM

Who says you can't do homework on a phone?

The HQ bunnies seem a bit confused - according to the Federal Register entry for that airspace, the extensions go to the surface. I assume the FAA considers both the 4.3 nm class D/E area and the surface area extensions to be class E surface area associated with the airport, so I'm leaning toward SVFR required to take off/land anywhere in it if ALW is reporting less than VFR.

The "tower authority" limited to class D argument strikes me as a red herring, since a VFR tower is essentially issuing SVFR clearances by delegation from the overlying IFR control facility. If the wx requires SVFR, the pilot has to get it from somebody - and the extensions are surface whether the ATCT is open or not.


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 1862
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #440007 - 06/27/17 01:48 PM

Just wondering how you'd read section 91.157(c)(2) which seems to say that to take off SVFR you'd need to have 1sm ground visibility which is defined as visibility from the cockpit of the aircraft at a satellite airport that does not have weather reporting capabilities? Why would that be necessary to say if the weather at the primary airport is supposed to be controlling for takeoff at the satellite? Seems this says that you could take off in SVFR even when the primary airport was 0/0. If that's true why would it stop you from taking off VFR with unlimited vis there?

Wouldn't this section say that vis at the primary airport controls for takeoffs there, but vis at the satellite airport controls for takeoffs at that field?


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Denny Cunningham
Top Gun


Reged: 09/01/01
Posts: 915
Loc: Gold Canyon, AZ
Re: Sectional Chart [Re: Tom Charlton]
      #440008 - 06/27/17 03:38 PM

Thanks for the uploading the graphic, Tom!

I received an email this morning with a link to where the E1 through E6 stuff is found (reference to this document is also found in the Federal Register link Scott posted):

7400.11A

It's a big download (1500 pages), but it appears the Class E stuff starts at section 6000. For those who want to play along at home, here's what it says specifically about Walla Walla's Class E. which appears to be a combination of E2, E4, and E5:

1. ANM WA E2 Walla Walla, WA
Walla Walla Regional Airport, WA
(lat. 46°05'43' N., long. 118°17'09'' W.)
That airspace extending upward from the surface within a 4.3-mile radius of the Walla Walla Regional Airport.

2. ANM WA E4 Walla Walla, WA
Walla Walla Regional Airport, WA
(lat. 46°05'43'' N., long. 118°17'09'' W.)
That airspace extending upward from the surface within 2.7 miles each side of the Walla Walla 215° bearing from the airport extending from the 4.3-mile radius of Walla Walla Regional Airport to 7.5 miles southwest of the airport, and within 4.1 miles each side of the Walla Walla 35° bearing from the airport extending from the 4.3-mile radius of Walla Walla Regional Airport to 13.4 miles northeast of the airport.

3. ANM WA E5 Walla Walla, WA
Walla Walla Regional Airport, WA
(lat. 46°05'43'' N., long. 118°17'09'' W.)
Walla Walla Regional Airport, point in space coordinates
(lat. 46°03'27'' N., long. 118°12'20'' W.)
That airspace extending upward from 700 feet above the surface bounded by a line beginning at lat. 45°52'29'' N., long. 118°23'027'' W.; to lat. 45°49'51'' N., long. 118°26'02'' W.; to lat. 45°57'17'' N., long. 118°40'49'' W.; to lat. 46°10'22'' N., long. 118°27'48'' W.; to lat. 46°08'46'' N., long. 118°24'32'' W.; to lat. 46°14'38'' N., long. 118°18'44'' W.; to lat. 46°16'07'' N., long.
118°21'47'' W.; to lat. 46°29'20'' N., long. 118°08'35'' W.; to lat. 46°22'02'' N., long. 117°53'24'' W.; to lat. 46°14'25'' N., long. 118°01'11'' W.; and that airspace within a 13.4-mile radius of point in space coordinates at lat. 46°03'27'' N., long. 118°12'20'' W., from the 052° bearing from the Walla Walla Regional Airport clockwise to the 198° bearing.


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Denny Cunningham
Top Gun


Reged: 09/01/01
Posts: 915
Loc: Gold Canyon, AZ
Re: Sectional Chart [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #440009 - 06/27/17 03:43 PM

Quote:

Just to make it more fun, looking at 9W2 in Foreflight, a remark posted there states "no opns durg periods walla walla offl wx report indcs conds below vfr mins unless spl vfr atc clnc is rcvd prior to entering ctlz or depg airport".

Andy




That's interesting, I'll pass it on. As Kcid said, the reference to a control zone makes me wonder if the feds had anything to do with the note-- sounds like something the airstrip owner might have added after he got gigged.


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Denny Cunningham
Top Gun


Reged: 09/01/01
Posts: 915
Loc: Gold Canyon, AZ
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #440010 - 06/27/17 03:47 PM

Quote:

The HQ bunnies seem a bit confused...




Good points, Scott, thanks. I'll pass 'em on and post if I hear anything back.


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #440012 - 06/27/17 04:56 PM

Turn that around: if the primary airport is below VFR, you need an SVFR clearance to operate below the ceiling in the class E surface area. That's what's being controlled by the wx at the primary airport.

Having established that SVFR is required within the surface area, they're trying to keep you from departing the satellite airport with 1/2 mile visibility just because the primary airport is, for example, reporting 1 1/2 miles. They're expecting the pilot to assess local conditions and determine that SVFR minima exist at the satellite airport.


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Sectional Chart [Re: Denny Cunningham]
      #440018 - 06/27/17 05:47 PM

Quote:

For those who want to play along at home, here's what it says specifically about Walla Walla's Class E. which appears to be a combination of E2, E4, and E5:




As if the unforgiving gods of fate and lift weren't bad enough. It's good to be a non-pilot.


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