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AVSIG Discussion Sections >> Air Traffic Control

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Denny Cunningham
Top Gun


Reged: 09/01/01
Posts: 915
Loc: Gold Canyon, AZ
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: Russell Holton]
      #439496 - 06/15/17 08:00 PM

Quote:

...how is the pilot supposed to know that he/she has to do things differently because the central airport is IFR?




I asked the same question, but didn't receive a satisfactory answer.


Quote:

Also, is the central airport considered "uncontrolled"?




Central airport is what we used to call 'uncontrolled", I guess the term "non-towered" is preferred today; in any case, there's no Class D.


Quote:

You said "no tower", so I'm guessing there's no report tower either.




Not sure what you meant by "no report tower either". Just assume there's an accredited weather observer of some sort at the central airport. It used to be pretty common to have various employees, anybody from airport manager to lineboys, certified to take observations at non-towered airports served by a Part 135 operator. I imagine most of that is automated these days.


For the record, Gil, my response was pretty much the same as yours-- I told 'em that, first, if it's good VFR where I'm at, it wouldn't occur to me to check the weather at a non-towered airport six or seven miles away. But even if I did for some reason, and found out it was zero-zero there, it wouldn't prompt me to request any sort of ATC clearance, so long as I was confident I could remain VFR after departure.


Good discussion, guys, I appreciate it. I plan to talk to my HQ contact over the weekend, present some of the ideas presented here, hopefully gain some insight into what prompted the question and see if the muckety-mucks came up with any sort of definitive answer.


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: Denny Cunningham]
      #439497 - 06/15/17 08:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

You said "no tower", so I'm guessing there's no report tower either.




Not sure what you meant by "no report tower either".




Gahhh, I meant to say "remote tower". Dang fingers...


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #439500 - 06/15/17 09:29 PM

Quote:

This question is particularly interesting in Denny's example, as the Class E extends up to and including 17,999' MSL. In the Class D situations, at least there's a top around 2,500' AGL...



Wouldn't the airspace above the top of the Class D be Class E, or higher? I wouldn't think there would be any situations where it is not within the CONUS. (Though I have seen it at remote islands in the middle of oceans, i.e. FJDG and FHAW)


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Gil Buettner [KAUW]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 2847
Loc: Gateway to the Northwoods
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: Denny Cunningham]
      #439501 - 06/15/17 10:41 PM

Quote:



For the record, Gil, my response was pretty much the same as yours-- I told 'em that, first, if it's good VFR where I'm at, it wouldn't occur to me to check the weather at a non-towered airport six or seven miles away. But even if I did for some reason, and found out it was zero-zero there, it wouldn't prompt me to request any sort of ATC clearance, so long as I was confident I could remain VFR after departure.




When I got to work this morning I asked my boss. He was positive that you need a Special VFR. He based it on his experience at his father's private airport a few miles northwest of Rhinelander, WI, which is Class E.

Of course... he is basing it on what he was told and what is commonly done there, not on any FAR interpretation.

--------------------
-Gil


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #439504 - 06/15/17 10:59 PM

Quote:

So if you're gonna let me bob and weave to avoid being below a 1000 ft ceiling in the actual spot in which I'm flying even though the airport has a 900 ft ceiling right over the airport, then why can't I do the same thing with VFR conditions vs the need for Special VFR conditions right over the weather reporting airport?




Andy -- I was working off your hypo, which I thought had HPN VFR while there were lower clouds to the west in the Class D. If HPN were below IFR, you'd need SVFR or an IFR clearance in your hypo.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 1862
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #439505 - 06/15/17 11:03 PM

Sorry, you're right. HPN was definitely VFR at the time.

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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: Denny Cunningham]
      #439506 - 06/15/17 11:11 PM

Quote:

I told 'em that, first, if it's good VFR where I'm at, it wouldn't occur to me to check the weather at a non-towered airport six or seven miles away. But even if I did for some reason, and found out it was zero-zero there, it wouldn't prompt me to request any sort of ATC clearance, so long as I was confident I could remain VFR after departure.




Some *accomplished* pilots (remember them?) might haul out a sectional before departure to see what manner of airspace overlies the departure airport. ;-) Some of those would note that it's a Class E surface area....which ought to prompt some curiosity as to the weather at the Class E surface area airport. All good things to learn on a pre-departure briefing.

Now, even with that knowledge, I myself am not convinced that the regs require the departing VFR pilot to talk to any controlling ATC facility (SVFR or otherwise)....but I think the language of 91.155 and 91.157 are better interpreted to require SVFR in the situation you mentioned.

And, yes, fun to get into the regs like this. Good to be back discussing such topics!

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #439507 - 06/15/17 11:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This question is particularly interesting in Denny's example, as the Class E extends up to and including 17,999' MSL. In the Class D situations, at least there's a top around 2,500' AGL...



Wouldn't the airspace above the top of the Class D be Class E, or higher? I wouldn't think there would be any situations where it is not within the CONUS. (Though I have seen it at remote islands in the middle of oceans, i.e. FJDG and FHAW)




Larry -- No Class D in Denny's example. It's a Class E surface area, so the overlying airspace (assuming not restricted or prohibited) is Class A, above 17,999' MSL.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #439508 - 06/16/17 12:05 AM

Quote:

No Class D in Denny's example.



I was replying to, "In the Class D situations, at least there's a top around 2,500' AGL..."


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Class E Airspace Question [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #439521 - 06/16/17 12:49 PM

Larry - That was my point, that Class E or higher would overlay a Class B . I'm not aware of Class G above D in the contiguous US.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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