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John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]
Top Gun


Reged: 09/13/01
Posts: 5059
Loc: Minnesota
Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham
      #417774 - 11/11/15 03:01 PM

Here's a great article about ATC at ORD, and looking at the impact of runway layouts on capacity.

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/102/3176-full.html?ET=avweb:e3176:217589a:&st=email#225168

AvWeb - O'Hare runway story


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]
      #417775 - 11/11/15 03:09 PM

Great read and perspective.

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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]
      #417815 - 11/12/15 09:30 PM

I suspect the theoretical capacity of the new parallel layout is higher than the "old" ORD, and the current numbers are down because demand is down. Lots of airports are running noticeably less traffic than they used to - some of the ATC facilities are taking downgrades as a result. As long as the airlines maintain schedule discipline and keep running sardine can flights it'll probably stay that way.

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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #417819 - 11/13/15 12:06 AM

I was at ORD from 1972-1982. My young nephew used to take the train out to the airport on the weekend and we made a weekly visit to the tower. I have no doubt the illustrious Mr. Cunningham was there many of those times.

It was fascinating to watch the ongoing ballet, the extemporaneous choreographing of incoming and outgoing traffic, all the teamwork involved, everyone a small piece of a big picture that fell into place so gracefully.
It was like watching a great conductor directing a magnificent orchestra.

I used to stand at the end of the "C" concourse on a CAVU night and look to the East, watching the seemingly endless line of landing lights stretched out for miles headed to landing on (what used to be) 27L and marvel that they looked like little jewels against the dark sky.

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Denny Cunningham
Top Gun


Reged: 09/01/01
Posts: 915
Loc: Gold Canyon, AZ
Re: Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #417820 - 11/13/15 01:02 AM

Actually, I didn't really write the piece as a serious commentary on the virtues of the different airport designs; I'm sure the new runway layout will out-perform the old one in all respects, if the time comes that demand warrants that sort of utilization.

I'd just stumbled across the photo of the 1948 runway design (which I'd never seen before) and found it fascinating. Bertorelli wanted to publish it, but needed some sort of narrative to give it context, so I decided to go kinda curmudgeon on it.

The article has garnered more interest than I expected. I've heard from a lot of ORD oldtimers (both pilots and controllers), which has been fun. Some of them bring up a slap-myself-in-the-forehead observation: how could I write a piece about vintage O'Hare, and NOT mention the colorful and iconic old taxiway names?!!?

And, then, there was one note from (I think) a current tower guy. He justifies the parallel runway layout due to safety concerns, citing statistics on controller-error caused runway incursions during the last few years the crossing runways were in use.

All of which, I'm sure, is true. But, the curmudgeon in me prefers to think that he's just admitting what I knew all along: that recent generations of ORD controllers didn't have the same juju as us old farts, and they messed up the gap shots so badly that the only way to stop 'em was to rebuild the airport in such a way as to eliminate the possibility of them screwing that particular pooch...


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Denny Cunningham]
      #417821 - 11/13/15 01:23 AM

Quote:


All of which, I'm sure, is true. But, the curmudgeon in me prefers to think that he's just admitting what I knew all along: that recent generations of ORD controllers didn't have the same juju as us old farts, and they messed up the gap shots so badly that the only way to stop 'em was to rebuild the airport in such a way as to eliminate the possibility of them screwing that particular pooch...




I think of those old ORD guys the same way I think of the Apollo and Space Shuttle guys.

They were the absolute best there is, and there is no one around now who can equal their talents and accomplishments.

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Ward Miller POU-NY
Top Gun


Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 10508
Loc: New York
Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Denny Cunningham]
      #417822 - 11/13/15 05:52 AM

>> ...them bring up a slap-myself-in-the-forehead observation: how could I
write a piece about vintage O'Hare, and NOT mention the colorful and iconic
old taxiway names?!!? <<

Denny, my favorite was the "Penalty Box". I could just imagine the captain's
comment when he was told to go there. "Huh? What for?", or "Come on, we
didn't do nuttin'", or "Figures!"


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #417826 - 11/13/15 12:08 PM

Quote:

colorful and iconic
old taxiway names......my favorite was the "Penalty Box"




Ward, started going over there (I was sent to Midway when I was first hired in 1960 by North Central) when O'Hare was just a terminal building in the middle of long enough runways for the jets just starting to be used. We used to come down there from MKE and terminate and ride back to MDW on a Chicago Helicopter Airways Sikorsky S-58. I can still remember how it shook. We deadheaded back over to MDW that way until CHA slung a rotor blade and dumped one into Maywood cemetary one night and then on we used a taxi for that flight. Little by little the jets took over and, within a year, MDW was no longer KIng-Kong. And I sure concur on the taxiway's names.

best, randy


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Ward Miller POU-NY
Top Gun


Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 10508
Loc: New York
Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #417828 - 11/13/15 04:56 PM

For those who are not familiar with the "colorful and iconic old taxiway
names" at ORD, here are some from a 1985 NOAA Airport Diagram:

Cargo
Inner Circular
Outer Circular
Branch
Wedge
Stub
Penalty Box
Scenic
Old Scenic
New Scenic
Jog
Center
Air Force Scenic
Hangar Alley
By Pass
Lakeshore Dr
14R-22L Parallel, and 5 other similar names for other runways
North-South
South
Southeast

Seven runways in all, with 3 pairs of widely spaced parallels. High speed
turnoffs on one runway are numbered. No taxiway has a Phonetic Alphabet name.


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #417831 - 11/13/15 05:29 PM

You're bringing back memories. My first jet flight was in an AAL 707 from
ORD to (can't remember whether it was YIP or DTW). That was in the very
early days of ORD's use.

The 707 accelerated down the runway faster than any piston pounder I had ever
ridden. The "EXIT" sign lens on the forward bulkhead popped out from the
force. Either Boeing, AAL, or some crew on that aircraft had "solved" the
problem with six inches of string. The lens popped out and dangled from the
string until someone put it back in.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #417832 - 11/13/15 05:52 PM

Quote:

You're bringing back memories




Chuckle, we ought'a get a bunch of them written down sometime, I can remember the first time I was over there on a middle of the day shuttle from MKE (IIRC we offered 50 flights a day between Chicago and Milwaukee). Sitting in a crewroom, reading some magazine, some whiz-bang actor out in Hollywood had died, can't recall now who it was, Humphrey Bogart?, Gary Cooper?, ????? dunno now but anyhow I recall a brand new Delta 880 jet taking off, lotta black smoke trail, summer of 1960. And I recall also one captain I flew with in the DC-3 verbally wondering "what'n'h--l did we do wrong now", when ORD ground sent us to the "penalty box". And that little airport right on the north border of ORD.

Course I also remember being on that accident investigation team at ??below zero in the winter of 1968.

best, randy


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Scott Dunham (RDU)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 6470
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Denny Cunningham]
      #417840 - 11/14/15 08:03 AM

Well, there were definitely some inexplicable faux pas with the converging operations. When your only job in launching departures from 32L is to make sure that the runway is clear and there is no one on the 9R final, but you manage to scare the crap out of the departure when they're overflown at rotation...not good. And that happened several times.

(In one case, getting on my ORD Greatest Hits radio collection when the departing crew that had to level off at 20 feet or so to avoid the landing traffic then gently inquired, "WHAT THE **** WAS THAT?")


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #417844 - 11/14/15 10:25 AM

Quote:

my ORD Greatest Hits radio collection....inquired, "WHAT THE ****




Chuckle, lordy-lordy, we all prolly need to contribute to that, I guess. Made me think of my chum from Untidy's comment on the radio from the 32L parallel, "Check the ovens, Lufthansa". ;(

best, randy


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Denny Cunningham
Top Gun


Reged: 09/01/01
Posts: 915
Loc: Gold Canyon, AZ
Re: Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #417848 - 11/14/15 04:00 PM

>> When your only job in launching departures from 32L is to make sure that the runway is clear and there is no one on the 9R final, but you manage to scare the crap out of the departure when they're overflown at rotation...not good. And that happened several times. <<

Yikes, that's just abysmal.

Hard to believe that, prior to the slow degradation that began in '81, the guy working those 32L departures also worked:

* Arrivals (and departures) on what is now 9R (then 9L)
* Departures on 4L
* Departures on 36
* Departures on 32R

I'm sure we had our share of screwups, too... but apparently none significant enough that they come to my mind today. Gawd, that operation was fun to work, though!


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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Ward Miller POU-NY]
      #417850 - 11/14/15 05:56 PM

Sigh, thanks Ward for those old ORD names.

Frankly as a new B-727 Captain the flying part was not too hard -I had flown it as 1st Officer and even as FE before.

However, the taxi game at busy complex airports like ORD/JFK and more was a challenge -even worse at night or in bad weather and the experienced ATC ground folks would spit off those names in rapid fire and then go to another aircraft before any readback. If you used ORD every day that might work -but some NWA pilot schedules you could go 3 months and not get to ORD.

Was it ORD ground (a woman controller) that watched some taxiing jet make mistakes and she had no mercy. It was busy, as usual, and she harped on the mistakes. One (never identified) radio comment was "wasn't I married to you once?".

But yes, the ORD operation including approach, departure, local and ground were all exceptional ATC folks. The best of the best.

Regards,

Dux -off to the sunny penalty box in Tucson


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #417852 - 11/14/15 06:50 PM

Quote:

One (never identified) radio comment was "wasn't I married to you once?"




That one I'd always heard happened at Frankfurt. That one and also the taxiing BOAC(now BA) captain that replied to the inquiry of "what's the matter British XXX, have you never been here before?" with a "yeah - but we never stopped that time!"

best, randy


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Great article on ORD by Denny Cunningham [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #417868 - 11/15/15 03:44 PM

Quote:

at Frankfurt




I'd forgotten this one until somebody reminded me about it yesterday. And it happened, heard it transpire on one of my Frankfurt flights. Might've been that same impatient German ATC controller, I dunno! Anyhow Frankfurt radar approach sez to some poor soul who was obviously confused by the arrival procedures - "Ach, YOU go to Rudesheim NOW and hold, ve get back to you later".

best, randy


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