AVSIG: Bonanza with flares? wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

✈ . . . . . . ✈ . . . . . ✈ . . . . ✈ . . . ✈ . . ✈ . ✈ . . ✈ . . . ✈ . . . . ✈ . . . . . ✈ . . . . . . Touch-and-Go to our Live Forum (This is a Read-only Archive of the 2004-2017 AVSIG Forum)


AVSIG Discussion Sections >> Aircraft

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)
Frank Van Haste [VKX]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 2700
Loc: Northern VA
Bonanza with flares?
      #438317 - 05/02/17 09:24 PM

So there I was, at the entry to the Milestones of Flight gallery at the Nat'l Air & Space Museum, when a visitor asked me what were the two tubes emerging from the bottom of the Spirit of St. Louis's fuselage.

Easy. Flare tubes installed by CAL after the transatlantic flight, due to a couple of chancey landings on the
subsequent "good will" tours.

Here's the interesting part. One of the visitors said that he knew an owner of an early V-tail Bonanza who had flares installed as a factory option! Switches on the panel and all that.

Does anyone here recall flares as a factory option (or an STC?) on V-tails back in the day?

FVH


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #438318 - 05/02/17 09:43 PM

Quote:

anyone here recall flares as a factory option (or an STC?) on V-tails




Sure. IIRC, all the 35s and meb'be the A-35s and B-35s had the flare tubes on the aft fuselage near the step.

best, randy


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #438320 - 05/03/17 12:01 AM

Frank - Yes, I've seen 'em.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Scott Perdue (50F)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 1126
Loc: Texas
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #438326 - 05/03/17 08:32 AM

Yep, had flares as an option. The C-182A my daughter has had the option installed... guts removed now.

It's for those night landings when you need to light the runway yourself. Gotta say that those pilots where better night flyers than I... being able to find the ends of the runway at night and puke out a flare to mark it.

Interesting!

--------------------
Gunny
www.eagleflyingmuseum.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Scott Perdue (50F)]
      #438327 - 05/03/17 09:00 AM

Quote:

Yep, had flares as an option. The C-182A my daughter has had the option installed... guts removed now.

It's for those night landings when you need to light the runway yourself. Gotta say that those pilots where better night flyers than I... being able to find the ends of the runway at night and puke out a flare to mark it.

Interesting!




One evening, many years ago, a couple of plane loads of us left 0W3 for New Castle for dinner.

Upon returning, we could not get the PCL lighting to light.

So, not wanting to have to figure out how to get from a far away airport, back to where our car was, I took over flying the Tri Pacer we were in.

I used know ground references, and the landing light to make a couple of passes, to get things in properspective, then landing, no fuss.

We taxied to the far end, and turned around, to light the runway for the other aircraft, which had an inop landing light.

But knowing the airport and the environment around it was CRUCIAL.

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #438328 - 05/03/17 09:11 AM

IIRC, the old CAA required them on singles flown commercially at night.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Tom Charlton
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 2221
Loc: The west coast of Florida
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #438330 - 05/03/17 10:05 AM

Quote:

flares as a factory option (or an STC?) on V-tails back in the day?


Hi Frank,
I do recall seeing the remnants of flare tubes on older Bonanas. Seems like there’d typically be three circles arranged vertically on the lower fuselage. About two or three inches in diameter IIRC.

Suspect it’d be challenging but obviously doable to pull off a landing depending on a parachute flare.

Hmm . . . bit of a fire hazard in dry conditions also.

Regards,
Tom Charlton

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #438331 - 05/03/17 10:05 AM

Quote:

IIRC, the old CAA required them on singles flown commercially at night.




Yup, was gonna mention that for Gunny and ya'll that I was pretty sure of that fact/requirement, night charters and such seemed to be the way I recalled it out at Roy Neal's Wes-Tex A/C in LBB. Circa 1955.

best, randy


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Durden
Top Gun


Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 4366
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #438339 - 05/03/17 11:25 AM

Frank,

I recall seeing flare tube openings patched over on a Bonanza and 182 - was told (don't know if it was true) the mechanisms were required to be removed because the fire hazard was far worse than the rare potential benefit to having the flares available.

Thinking back to three night landings on unlit runways over the years, Grumman Cheetah, Cessna 210 and Cessna 402. All in interesting circumstances where the safety level seemed satisfactory at the time.

No more.

Warmest regards,
Rick


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Rick Durden]
      #438342 - 05/03/17 12:48 PM

One evening years ago I was taking a shower in the clubhouse at the old Black Forest Gliderport, when I heard an engine pass low overhead -- twice. When I came out there was a knock at the door, and a man asked where the transient parking was.

Seems he picked our field on the sectional because it was near the people he wanted to visit; couldn't raise anybody on Unicom; made a couple of passes in his 172 with the landing light on; and landed south.

For those who haven't seen that runway, from the treetops at the approach end to the far end of the pavement was about 5000 feet south and almost 200 feet down...

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Tom Charlton]
      #438366 - 05/04/17 12:42 AM

Quote:

Suspect it’d be challenging but obviously doable to pull off a landing depending on a parachute flare.
Hmm . . . bit of a fire hazard in dry conditions also.




Tomasina, from o-l-d Beechcraft 1949 lit. (which would'a been after the end of the lightwing/welded truss model 35s (last one was around # 1500) and just after Beech started building the A models).

CAA Aviation Safety Release No 321 regarding the use of parachute type landing flares in an emergency using 3 minute flares.

This procedure involved dropping the first flare at a minimum altitude of 3,000 ft and the second flare at 2,000 ft. The function of the first flare is to illuminate a rather large area so that the pilot may select the best available terrain for his landing. After the flare was released at 3,000 ft, the airplane was turned about in approximately 1 minute and was in a position under the flare. Since the flare would burn for at least 3 minutes and would descend at an average rate of about 450 ft per minute, the pilot would have sufficient time to circle within the cone of illumination and select the best landing spot. Ordinarily a pilot would make this selection within a few seconds and proceed toward that spot at a descending angle.

The second flare was then dropped from about 2,000 ft, in the vicinity of the selected spot, taking into account wind direction, so that the flare would drift toward and possibly over the landing site during the latter half of its descent. Since the maximum rate of descent of the flare is 550 ft per minute, in 3 minutes it should drop a maximum of 1650 ft. If it burns out in the minimum burning time of 3 minutes, it would go out at approximately 350 ft above the ground. Obviously the pilot must effect his landing prior to the expiration of the flare. When conditions might necessitate flare drops from heights lower than 2,000 ft, it is possible that the flare will complete its burning after striking the ground … consideration should be given to possible incendiary danger to ground personnel and property… .

[Numerous variations in the procedures were then described] with the most important things to remember being: 1) drop the first flare at approximately 3,000 ft 2) turn the airplane back into the cone of illumination 3) select the landing site 4) drop the second flare to the windward of the site, at not less than 2,000 ft and 5) complete the descent so as to effect the landing before the 3 minute burning time of the second flare expires.

The above procedure was found satisfactory for the use of 3 minute flares and obviously it must be altered when 1 1/2 minute flares are used, as in the case of the BONANZA. In this event, the first or exploratory flare should be dropped at an altitude of 1,300 ft. the second flare, by which the landing is made, should be dropped at 900 ft.”

best, randy (who never did it and wouldn't want to)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Bonanza with flares? [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #438368 - 05/04/17 08:12 AM

>>> ... bit of a fire hazard ...

You could say that. I was at an ammo/POL (Petroleum, Oil, and Lubricants)
dump in Vietnam. The various categories of ammo, POL, and a medical clearing
company (!) were all separated by earthen revetments.

A Vietnamese perimeter guard on the upwind side launched a parachute flare.
It landed inside the perimeter and started a fire in the white phosphorus
revetment (likely pallets or crates). The WP made the revetments irrelevant
almost immediately. Everything cooked off over the rest of the morning.

Fortunately, the people in the medical area had time to flee.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #438370 - 05/04/17 09:40 AM

Sounds like a pretty good circus trick...;-)

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #438371 - 05/04/17 09:58 AM

What was the guard's next job?

My AFROTC summer camp was at Eglin AFB, and we toured a huge ammo dump that had been a staging point for ordnance being shipped out of Pensacola during WW2...in 1961 they were still setting off a truckload a day to dispose of the leftovers. There were rows and rows of bunkers covered by earth mounds, each with a partial mound on the other side of the access road to stop the bunker door in the event of an explosion.

Some of the mounds were extra large and had armed guards posted on them; we were told they contained nukes. Never found out why the extra dirt would have helped...;-)

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Durden
Top Gun


Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 4366
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Ray Tackett]
      #438378 - 05/04/17 12:23 PM

>>Bit of a fire hazard<<

Fourth of July, 1970s, Seattle. My uncle was a merchant marine captain. When a case of parachute flares on his ship would exceed their expiration date, he would bring the case home. By the time the 4th and a family reunion rolled around, he had a bunch of flares. My cousins and I took the cases out on a dock on a lake whose name I don't remember. My uncle instructed us in use - hold the flare tube over the water, point it up and slightly away, twist the base or pull the cord (depending on type). The rocket should fire instantly. If nothing happened in five seconds, drop the whole thing in the water.

As a guy who'd fired Estes rockets as a kid, I was utterly amazed at how fast the rocket propelling the flare left the tube compared to the Estes rockets (and even though I knew there would be no recoil, I was initially surprised by its absence). We fired several dozen flares (two or three were hang fires that were dropped into the water). Was a great 4th fireworks event for us. Didn't draw any members of the law enforcement community and nobody lost any body parts or got burned. didn't even consider what sort of mess we were dropping into the lake via parachute. Innocent time.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Bonanza with flares? [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #438380 - 05/04/17 12:43 PM

What was the next job of the "Chairborne Ranger" who thought putting a field
aid station in an ammo dump was a good idea?

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Tom Charlton
Top Gun


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 2221
Loc: The west coast of Florida
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #438410 - 05/04/17 11:32 PM

Quote:

Tomasina, from o-l-d Beechcraft 1949 lit. -----
----- best, randy (who never did it and wouldn't want to)



Thanks Randy that was an interesting read. Had never come across that before, nor even contemplated the process. I can see where back in –olden days- there’d’a been dam few airdromes with lighting.

Regards,
Tom Charlton

--------------------
The airplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1939.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Tom Charlton]
      #438411 - 05/04/17 11:49 PM

Quote:

can see where back in –olden days- there’d’a been dam few airdromes with lighting




Yup, true! Last Tuesday morning at our twice-monthly breakfast of the retired North Central pilots we got to discussing about how dark it used to be prior to the automatic yard lights on the farms after leaving MSP to fly out across Minnesota to the Dakotas.

best, randy


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Stephanie Belser
Top Gun APC


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 5929
Loc: KFAM
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #438436 - 05/05/17 04:41 PM

Here is a 1955 article on the use of parachute flares.

--------------------
What the hell is an "aluminum falcon"?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Stephanie Belser
Top Gun APC


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 5929
Loc: KFAM
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Stephanie Belser]
      #438438 - 05/05/17 04:48 PM Attachment (56 downloads)

A chart from the article:



--------------------
What the hell is an "aluminum falcon"?

Edited by Stephanie Belser (05/05/17 04:49 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Stephanie Belser
Top Gun APC


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 5929
Loc: KFAM
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #438439 - 05/05/17 04:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Suspect it’d be challenging but obviously doable to pull off a landing depending on a parachute flare.
Hmm . . . bit of a fire hazard in dry conditions also.




Tomasina, from o-l-d Beechcraft 1949 lit. (which would'a been after the end of the lightwing/welded truss model 35s (last one was around # 1500) and just after Beech started building the A models).

CAA Aviation Safety Release No 321 regarding the use of parachute type landing flares in an emergency using 3 minute flares.

This procedure involved dropping the first flare at a minimum altitude of 3,000 ft and the second flare at 2,000 ft. The function of the first flare is to illuminate a rather large area so that the pilot may select the best available terrain for his landing. After the flare was released at 3,000 ft, the airplane was turned about in approximately 1 minute and was in a position under the flare. Since the flare would burn for at least 3 minutes and would descend at an average rate of about 450 ft per minute, the pilot would have sufficient time to circle within the cone of illumination and select the best landing spot. Ordinarily a pilot would make this selection within a few seconds and proceed toward that spot at a descending angle.

The second flare was then dropped from about 2,000 ft, in the vicinity of the selected spot, taking into account wind direction, so that the flare would drift toward and possibly over the landing site during the latter half of its descent. Since the maximum rate of descent of the flare is 550 ft per minute, in 3 minutes it should drop a maximum of 1650 ft. If it burns out in the minimum burning time of 3 minutes, it would go out at approximately 350 ft above the ground. Obviously the pilot must effect his landing prior to the expiration of the flare. When conditions might necessitate flare drops from heights lower than 2,000 ft, it is possible that the flare will complete its burning after striking the ground … consideration should be given to possible incendiary danger to ground personnel and property… .

[Numerous variations in the procedures were then described] with the most important things to remember being: 1) drop the first flare at approximately 3,000 ft 2) turn the airplane back into the cone of illumination 3) select the landing site 4) drop the second flare to the windward of the site, at not less than 2,000 ft and 5) complete the descent so as to effect the landing before the 3 minute burning time of the second flare expires.

The above procedure was found satisfactory for the use of 3 minute flares and obviously it must be altered when 1 1/2 minute flares are used, as in the case of the BONANZA. In this event, the first or exploratory flare should be dropped at an altitude of 1,300 ft. the second flare, by which the landing is made, should be dropped at 900 ft.”

best, randy (who never did it and wouldn't want to)




The 1955 article referenced 1.5-min flares, which were fired electrically, or 1-min flares, fired from a 37mm flare pistol. I'm thinking that the workload of loading and firing off a couple of flares from a pistol while dealing with an engine failure at night would sort of mandate not flying at night.

The rack-mounted flares, well, I've got to admit that if I did a lot of night flying, they'd be really nice to have, especially since a lot of hay fields these days seem to be littered with half-ton round bales of hay.

(Nowadays, I do night VFR when there is a nice moon out.)

--------------------
What the hell is an "aluminum falcon"?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Stephanie Belser]
      #438440 - 05/05/17 05:16 PM

Quote:

a lot of hay fields these days seem to be littered with half-ton round bales of hay.



Drop some flares into those and you'll have lots of light...;-)

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Bonanza with flares? [Re: Stephanie Belser]
      #438442 - 05/05/17 05:45 PM

One thing to watch out for by moonilight. It can be hard to tell a dirt road
from a river before touchdown.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kcid LlirreM
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 4768
Loc: Chuckey, TN
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #438444 - 05/05/17 08:00 PM

My 1953 180 service manual has a section on installing flares.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #438447 - 05/05/17 09:20 PM

Quote:

1953 180




That 180 had the last different motor mounts.

best, randy


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Tom Charlton]
      #438455 - 05/06/17 09:49 AM

Tom may have seen this at one time also..
When I flew charter from Palm Beach, occasionally had a trip to Sebring.

The FBO had a porch (1980 ish )with rockers. I was sitting one evening waiting for passengers when the sky lit up over the Avon Park Range to the East. Parachute flares. Then, fighters, probably Phantoms back then, streaked in and unloaded.
Better than the Fourth....Airshow and fireworks!

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Frank Van Haste [VKX]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 2700
Loc: Northern VA
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #438467 - 05/06/17 03:52 PM

This has turned into a terrific thread! Thanks to all for your contributions.

FVH


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
nehoC hctiM
Top Gun


Reged: 08/03/04
Posts: 2293
Loc: LAX Based 10/2016 - Current YA...
Re: Bonanza with flares? [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #438490 - 05/06/17 11:55 PM

A previous student of mine, now a SWA capt and Twinkie owner, had a 55 a Vtail. The left aft fuselage had flare tubes, sealed.
I sent the article to him, thanks mucho!

--------------------
USA Today said, people over 50 are calmer.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 16 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Mike Overly 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 4112

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us AVSIG

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5

Logout   Main Index    AVSIG Aviation Forum