AVSIG: Mx Outsourcing wwswsigarch.jpg (7236 bytes)

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AVSIG Discussion Sections >> Airlines & Air Crews

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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Mx Outsourcing
      #276020 - 12/14/09 05:06 PM

Looks like maybe this wasn't such a good deal?

Accident: Air Transat A313 at Rio de Janeiro on Dec 13th 2009, jumps chocks
during engine tests and rolls "hunting"


http://avherald.com/h?article=42431c73&opt=0
"An Air Transat Airbus A310-300 registration C-GTSF had completed a C-Check
in Rio de Janeiro,RJ (Brazil) and was undergoing a ground run, when the
airplane jumped the chocks, travelled across the tarmac, went across a road,
both wings hitting lamp standards and both engines hitting trees before the
airplane came to a stop on soft, forested ground."

Ooops.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #276022 - 12/14/09 05:20 PM

Makes you wonder what shortcuts they took. And what other shortcuts they are taking that haven't bitten - yet.

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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Russell Holton]
      #276025 - 12/14/09 05:40 PM

Russell -- One shortcut....chocks too small. <G>

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #276033 - 12/14/09 07:01 PM

I'm not sure of the details or what the normal procedure are. Were the engines still running at above idle? If so, why weren't they shut off when it jumped the chocks? Is it normal for someone to be in the cockpit who could then control the plane? I kinda sounds like that wasn't done here. My first impression is that there was no "backup" if something should go wrong.

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Ralph Hood
Top Gun


Reged: 05/06/04
Posts: 4257
Loc: Erwin, TN
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #276067 - 12/15/09 10:22 AM

<<Air Transat A313 at Rio de Janeiro on Dec 13th 2009, jumps chocks during engine tests and rolls "hunting">>

Scott--

Doesn't this sound a lot like the infamous pilots doing a runup when picking up their brand new Airbus? They, too, jumped chocks and proceeded.

Merry/ Happy!

Ralph Hood

--------------------
Ralph Hood
www.ralphhood.com


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Jerry Kurata [KLVK]
Top Gun


Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 6395
Loc: Northern California
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #276068 - 12/15/09 11:17 AM

Sounds like they need to do these test runups on a bigger pad.

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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #276070 - 12/15/09 11:50 AM

Well I can't think of any good reason something like this should happen. When doing a run-up, wheels are supposed to be chocked, parking brake SET, and someone (trained) sitting in the left seat. Back in my airline days I was trained on starting and running DC-9 APU's and riding brakes during a tow. I had to learn about start pumps, fuel switches, fire circuit tests, electrical buses, cabin heat, hot starts, aux hydraulics, how to tune in ground, how to use the intercom, and a bunch of other stuff I can't remember, which is why we always used a checklist. And got annual recurrent training. IIRC we spent 4 hours in the classroom and 2 hours in the aircraft.

I imagine the training for actually starting and running an engine at high power is quite intensive. Or should be.

Edited by Mase Taylor [L.A] (12/15/09 11:53 AM)


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #276072 - 12/15/09 12:36 PM

Quote:

Back in my airline days I was trained on starting and running DC-9 APU's and riding brakes during a tow.




Does the number 760 ring any bells?


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #276074 - 12/15/09 12:49 PM

Quote:

Does the number 760 ring any bells?




It rings the bell that says I should remember it but that is far far as the old brain cells take me <G>. Um, temperature?

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #276076 - 12/15/09 01:20 PM

It goes along with 710 and 732.

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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #276083 - 12/15/09 03:58 PM

I also recall an accident with a brand new A340 where the ground crew was doing full power engine checks and it ran up a blast fence, broke in half and injured some on board.

One of the engines ran for almost one hour as I remember.

Total loss of aircraft as far as I know.

As to outsource stuff, when I retired from NWA in 1996 we had almost 5,000 FAA certified mechanics working for Northwest. Today we have less than 1,000.

Regards,

Dux


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Jeff Hartmann CIC
Top Gun


Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 7323
Loc: Chico,CA
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #276095 - 12/15/09 07:42 PM

>>>goes along with 710 and 732. <<<

Is that the number of brain cells lost per beer?

--------------------
Jeff

nothing clever to say right now...


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #276096 - 12/15/09 09:01 PM

I know those numbers but I can't remember why!

Of course, it has been um, over ten years....

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
Loc: 4CO2
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #276097 - 12/15/09 09:11 PM

Quote:

Does the number 760 ring any bells?




Millimeters of mercury in one atmosphere?

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #276099 - 12/15/09 09:23 PM Attachment (105 downloads)

Quote:

I also recall an accident with a brand new A340 where the ground crew was doing full power engine checks and it ran up a blast fence, broke in half and injured some on board.

One of the engines ran for almost one hour as I remember.

Total loss of aircraft as far as I know.




Maybe this one:







--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.

Edited by Mase Taylor [L.A] (12/15/09 09:25 PM)


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sreyoB yrraL
AVSIG Member


Reged: 05/16/04
Posts: 9442
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #276108 - 12/16/09 12:21 AM

Quote:

I know those numbers but I can't remember why!

Of course, it has been um, over ten years....




Only been 11 months for me so I still remember a few things.

710, 732, and 760 are the DC9 APU EGT limits. Continuous, Momentary, and Starting respectively.

Of course, then there was the one on the duty cycle limits on the DC Start Pump, which you mentioned earlier... "90 seconds on/90 seconds off" sometimes given in orals as "90 seconds or the West Coast, whichever comes first!".


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: sreyoB yrraL]
      #276125 - 12/16/09 10:30 AM

Quote:

710, 732, and 760 are the DC9 APU EGT limits. Continuous, Momentary, and Starting respectively.

Of course, then there was the one on the duty cycle limits on the DC Start Pump, which you mentioned earlier... "90 seconds on/90 seconds off" sometimes given in orals as "90 seconds or the West Coast, whichever comes first!".





Ah, yes.

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Kcid LlirreM
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 4768
Loc: Chuckey, TN
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Russell Holton]
      #276160 - 12/16/09 08:58 PM

I seem to recall something about the "wheels on Ground" software not allowing the brakes to operate. If at low weight tires might not hold it anyway?

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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Mx Outsourcing [Re: Kcid LlirreM]
      #276174 - 12/17/09 05:12 AM

Quote:

I seem to recall something about the "wheels on Ground" software not allowing the brakes to operate. If at low weight tires might not hold it anyway?




I'd think the brakes could hold it - if someone was able to cut the engines.

I think it's going to go one of two ways. Either this is a accident chain (multiple things went wrong), or they removed safeguards in the procedures and it bit them.


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