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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
JetBlue Fatigue Experiment
      #131847 - 10/31/06 11:15 AM

I happened on a WSJ article from 10 days ago, about a JetBlue cockpit fatigue experiment with the blessing of local NY FAA officials that has 800 Indy in an uproar:

----------------------
Last year, thousands of JetBlue Airways passengers became unwitting participants in a highly unusual test of pilot fatigue.

Without seeking approval from Federal Aviation Administration headquarters, consultants for JetBlue outfitted a small number of pilots with devices to measure alertness. Operating on a green light from lower-level FAA officials, management assigned the crews to work longer shifts in the cockpit -- as many as 10 to 11 hours a day -- than the eight hours the government allows. Their hope: Showing that pilots could safely fly far longer without exhibiting ill effects from fatigue.

The results of the test haven't yet been made public -- they are expected to be published by the end of the year -- and JetBlue executives say even they don't know the findings. But the experiment has landed JetBlue in hot water while fueling a fierce debate within the airline industry about how long pilots should be allowed to stay at the controls.
-------------------------

Basically, JBU was looking at whether domestic duty rules could be relaxed to international standards with the addition of a third cockpit crewmember.

-----------------------
The two-pilot crews were equipped with specially designed motion detectors on their wrists to measure activity, and participated in tests with hand-held computing devices that issued random prompts and then recorded the speed of responses. All told, JetBlue says 29 pilots, including the backup aviators, participated in more than 50 data-gathering flights during May 2005. All of the flights were domestic, and a big portion were coast-to-coast trips.

The carrier says it proceeded under the assumption that local FAA officials had the power to approve the company's plans under so-called supplemental flight rules. Those rules specify that airlines flying longer distances must have at least one extra pilot on board so no single pilot flies more than eight hours in total. However, in the JetBlue test, even though each flight had a third pilot on board, the original crews stayed at the controls for more than 10 hours a day. None of the reserve pilots ever replaced a regular crew member.
-------------------------

Interesting stuff.


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #131848 - 10/31/06 11:18 AM

What is more interesting is that it does not seem anyone is going to get more than a small slap on the wrist. I doubt had this been a legacy carrier things would have gone so quietly. OR is the FAA embarassed by a local FSDO allowing such an experiment?

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Rick Durden
Top Gun


Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 4366
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #131850 - 10/31/06 11:36 AM

John,

FAA inspector friend called me and told me about this one - it seems the FAA is really hot about it. I'm going to wait and see, but there are some very pissed off people inside the FAA. Whether the politics will allow them to do anything remains to be seen.

Warmest regards,
Rick


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #131862 - 10/31/06 12:12 PM

John -- I am certain that the JFK FSDO is the source of a lot of egg on the
old FAA visage. They'd have a darn tough time prosecuting any case with the
approval of the FAA's chief ops guy for JBU. <G>

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Rick Durden]
      #131872 - 10/31/06 01:36 PM

Quote:

John,

but there are some very pissed off people inside the FAA. Whether the politics will allow them to do anything remains to be seen.

Warmest regards,
Rick




There ought to be a lot of very pissed-off people in the pilot community. How'd they ever get anyone to participate in this goat rope?

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Rick Durden
Top Gun


Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 4366
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #131875 - 10/31/06 02:01 PM

Bill,

When the pilot's union is weak and the company wants something, pilots who value their jobs tend to go along - plus there is a weird bias in human behavior, people seem to volunteer for experiments even though they can be dangerous or just foolish.

I'd have hoped that the pilots would not have been such sheep.

Warmest regards,
Rick


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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #131932 - 11/01/06 05:20 AM

Northwest did some fatigue research almost 20 years ago for NASA on long haul flights. It was indeed FAA approved well in advance.

It concerned allowing pilots to sleep for about 45 minutes while in the cockpit seat. However, all these cases were with three pilot cockpits.

The results showed more alert pilots during decent and landing with a so called "NASA Nap" during the cruise portion.

Flying 10 hours (flying time) may or may not be a fatigue issue (IMO). If it's 10 hours with 8 legs, that would be close to a 16-18 hour duty day. Yup, a lot of potential fatigue.

If it's 10 hours with (for example) just two legs and perhaps a 12-13 hour duty day, that might not be so prone to fatigue.

And, of course, it depends upon when the flight periods start. If they are off you normal sleep cycle, that clearly it's likely to have more fatigue issues (IMO).

Enough of this, I'm off for a "NASA Nap".

regards,

Dux


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
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Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Rick Durden]
      #131959 - 11/01/06 09:09 AM

I don't think that Jet Blue has a pilot's union. I could be wrong.

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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Rick Durden]
      #131960 - 11/01/06 09:11 AM

Quote:

John,

FAA inspector friend called me and told me about this one - it seems the FAA is really hot about it. I'm going to wait and see, but there are some very pissed off people inside the FAA. Whether the politics will allow them to do anything remains to be seen.

Warmest regards,
Rick




I would imagine there is a lot of heat.. but as you note, it will be interesting to see what comes out of it.

It does point out what has been said here before and that is 'a FSDO is a FSDO is a FSDO' ain't necessarily so....


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #131962 - 11/01/06 09:16 AM

Quote:

John -- I am certain that the JFK FSDO is the source of a lot of egg on the old FAA visage. They'd have a darn tough time prosecuting any case with the approval of the FAA's chief ops guy for JBU. <G>




No doubt... it will be interesting to see what happens.

Back in the Piedmont days, we had a exce-wannabe who thought he could elevate his status in the company by some creative scheduling. We had a 727 headed to the west coast that was late and no crew on the west coast legal to bring it back. The trip out and back would easily exceed the max scheduled limit of 8 hours...

So, our boy-wizard decided to use an 'augmented' crew. Good for international flights but nowhere near legal for domestic.

He got his wee-wee wacked for that one.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #131964 - 11/01/06 09:27 AM

J - re>>Back in the Piedmont days<<

Aw heck, he could'a just deadheaded "Diamond Jack" out there and nobody'd of known the difference, least of all Jack <g>.

best, randy


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #131965 - 11/01/06 09:42 AM

John -- Well, he was thinking out of the box. <G>

I remember flying on PI LAX-CLT, and then on to ILM, in November 1988 coming
back home from a business trip with a stop in ILM to look at this Archer I
had seen advertized in TAP. Ended up buying the Archer and flying it home
after Thanksgiving, and loved it dearly.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #131978 - 11/01/06 11:24 AM

Quote:

J - re>>Back in the Piedmont days<<

Aw heck, he could'a just deadheaded "Diamond Jack" out there and nobody'd of known the difference, least of all Jack <g>.

best, randy




Someone told me a few months ago Diamond Jack was not doing well. I have not heard anything lately. But yes, let him carry that pistol in his boot, those diamonds in his rings and bracelets and ignore that flask.. and DJ was ready to go...

Funny thing about Jack.. seemed loose as a goose but drop the flaps or gear 1 kt above placard and it would be an item to talk about. Extensively.


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #131979 - 11/01/06 11:31 AM

Quote:

John -- Well, he was thinking out of the box. <G>
I remember flying on PI LAX-CLT, and then on to ILM, in November 1988 coming back home from a business trip with a stop in ILM to look at this Archer I
had seen advertized in TAP. Ended up buying the Archer and flying it home after Thanksgiving, and loved it dearly.




The standard briefing for the 727 going to the west coast was, "...if anything happens, open all 3 dumps and dump down to 3000 across the board or until we are back on short final."

We are always at max gross and takeoff usually used MOST of the runway. Damn.. I loved flyin' that airplane. Unlike the 737 which could go down or slow down but not both, the 727 could do almost anything you asked of it. While I never did it, I know guys who hit the marker well north of 250kts and made a *stabilized* approach by the time they were at 500ft.

The 727 was one of the truly great flying machines and I am privileged to have flown it.

How long did you keep the Archer??

Edited by J Wiley (11/01/06 11:32 AM)


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #131985 - 11/01/06 12:13 PM

J - re>>who hit the marker well north of 250kts and made a *stabilized* approach by the time they were at 500<<

Concur, I never found anyplace that I could exceed the 250 below 10 but garandangtee'ya, BRIDG *at* 250 and stablized by 7-800'.

>>The 727 was one of the truly great<<

Concur! (Especially with dash 17's or 17R's!)

best, randy


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132021 - 11/01/06 03:07 PM

John -- I had it for 7 years, and over 1000 hours, for instrument training,
some commercial work and lots of cross country time. Sweet airplane.

My "I'd like to do" list includes types in the DC-3 and 727. I really like
the classic tri-motor, from when EAL first introduced their Whisperliners
(louder than stink, actually!).

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #132029 - 11/01/06 03:41 PM

Quote:

My "I'd like to do" list includes types in the DC-3 and 727. I really like
the classic tri-motor, from when EAL first introduced their Whisperliners
(louder than stink, actually!).




The Seven Two was an honest airplane... very honest and forthright. Fly it right and it would not bite. Screw around with it and it was like dancing with Medusa.

You could trim it up, set the power and NAIL the airspeed. On an ILS, you could wire it. Flying non-precision approaches was a challenge especially when you had to carry engine anti-ice because you had to keep a high power setting and that screwed up your descents to mins where we still used dive and drives. Level off and with gear down and flaps 30 for landing, the engines were swilling fuel at close to or more than 5000lbs/hr EACH.

On the other hand, you could come into the pattern clean, set about 2800lbs on each engine. When it slowed to 210, drop flaps 1. It would slow more and at 190 go flaps 5. Approaching the glideslope, drop the gear at 1 dot and go flaps 15. Intercept the glideslope and go flaps 30 and NEVER touch the thrust levers.

An honest airplane... Boeing said however, they would NEVER build another airplane with such a complicated wing. We used to think of flaps 40 at 50% wing disassembly...<G> with those leading edge flaps/slats and TRIPLE slotted fowler flaps. It looked like some raptor mantling with full flaps.


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Jim Tavenner
Top Gun


Reged: 05/14/04
Posts: 2069
Loc: Annandale, VA
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Bruce Gorrell [EQY]]
      #132041 - 11/01/06 04:31 PM

You are correct, JB does not have a pilot's union. All the pilots sign five year individual contracts. At the end of it, I suppose, any pilot could be fired at the company's whim. If they started to do it just to keep the seniority list pretty young, you'd see a union real quick. A lot of the people they hired were MEC chairmen and the like.

Companys that have unions deserve them. JB was trying not to be such a company, but maybe they blew it with this little stunt.

--------------------
-Jim T.
FO, MIA, B-737

"Hours of boredom, punctuated by moments of stark terror."


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132050 - 11/01/06 04:52 PM

J - re>>told me a few months ago Diamond Jack was not doing well<<

Now THAT one has to be one of the more classical pieces of understatement that I've ever seen!

best, randy


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
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JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132059 - 11/01/06 05:26 PM

John -- I marvelled many times at that wing coming apart on approach from my
august spot sitting in coach.

Isn't it just magnificent when you're one with the airplane, and all the
right stuff happens (speeds, configurations, touchdown) almost magically
without much conscious thought? It makes my day (or night), every time it
all comes together.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Joe Budge (W29)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 7423
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132091 - 11/02/06 02:39 AM

Quote:

On the other hand, you could come into the pattern clean, set about 2800lbs on each engine. When it slowed to 210, drop flaps 1. It would slow more and at 190 go flaps 5. Approaching the glideslope, drop the gear at 1 dot and go flaps 15. Intercept the glideslope and go flaps 30 and NEVER touch the thrust levers.




I was in coach for one of those rides. We came across Denver fairly high - you could see the airport way down there. In this instance the pilot brought the center engine to idle, leaving the other two humming along. Hearing one engine winding down got my attention. The rest of the approach was as you describe with flaps, slats, and gear falling out at appropriate times. No throttles - it was awesome. Third engine came back on-line for short final.

Regards,
Joe


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Randy Sohn]
      #132106 - 11/02/06 04:09 AM

Quote:

J - re>>told me a few months ago Diamond Jack was not doing well<<

Now THAT one has to be one of the more classical pieces of understatement that I've ever seen!

best, randy




Is Jack not still with us??? I have not seen such if he has departed.


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


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Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #132111 - 11/02/06 04:40 AM

Quote:

John -- I marvelled many times at that wing coming apart on approach from my
august spot sitting in coach.

Isn't it just magnificent when you're one with the airplane, and all the right stuff happens (speeds, configurations, touchdown) almost magically
without much conscious thought? It makes my day (or night), every time it all comes together.




Many guys never did a flaps 40 landing because they claimed the Seven-Two would fall out of the sky. Not so but it was a different machine. With 40, it used practically no runway. Standard was flaps 30 but now most operators have blocked off 30 and 40 and use 25 for landing due to noise. I almost always used 40 going into LGA and DCA.

And yes, magnificent. I have on more than a few occasions patted the airplane before getting out of the cockpit and muttered, "Thanks.. I enjoyed that."

Also on a few occasions, I have had to apologize. <G> Like someone said, "Some days you just can't do anything wrong and other days you couldn't find your ass with a triple GPS and 6 check airmen."


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Joe Budge (W29)]
      #132112 - 11/02/06 04:50 AM

Quote:

I was in coach for one of those rides. We came across Denver fairly high - you could see the airport way down there. In this instance the pilot brought the center engine to idle, leaving the other two humming along. Hearing one engine winding down got my attention. The rest of the approach was as you describe with flaps, slats, and gear falling out at appropriate times. No throttles - it was awesome. Third engine came back on-line for short final.

Regards,
Joe




That was a fairly common technique because you normally bled number 1 and 3 for the the air conditioning packs and pressurization. It was also fairly common as the Seven Two aged that it became a bit more leaky and sometimes you had to leave one engine up just to keep the cabin from climbing during the descent.

Randy flew the last ones.. the ones with the BIG engines. I flew the 727 which the wimpy -7 engines, the satisfactory -9s and the nice performing -15 enignes as well as intermixes of 7s/9s. Later I got to fly a couple of re-engined 727s where they hung the 200 series JT8D from the MD-80 on the pods. It was essentially adding a 4th engine to the airplane due to the increased thrust.

Many are not aware that there was a proposal by Boeing to do this (re-engine the 727 with JT8D-200 engines). It was the 727-300 proposed to United. It never got off paper and Boeing admitted that getting the #2 engine to breathe properly was a problem. The next proposal to United was a twin engine narrow body which languished for a long time before it caught on.. the 757, another fine flying machine. But the 757 could NEVER slow down like the Mighty Tri-Motor.


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


Reged: 01/11/03
Posts: 20065
JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132116 - 11/02/06 05:03 AM

John -- <<I enjoyed that>>

Amen.

My kids laugh at me. After a flight, after tieing the beast down and
gathering our stuff, I walk about 75 feet toward the FBO but then turn around
to look at the remarkable conveyance one more time, half-way disbelieving
that we had just been 3 miles above the earth and travelling hundreds and
hundreds of miles at several hundred miles an hour (love the tailwinds).
It's still a thrill, and they've taken to counting down to my turn-around and
looking with me.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Richard Duxbury (Dux)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 5468
Loc: Minneapolis/Tucson
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132119 - 11/02/06 05:34 AM

Hi John. You are correct.

The B757 was a nice glider compared to the 727. However, we never used full flaps on our NWA 727's.

I almost always used speed brakes at various points in the decent and approach with the 757. -and made one go around because we could not get it slowed down from a slam dunk visual to DTW. It would have been a piece of cake with a 727!

As to this fatigue experement, I bet that NASA and others have vast books about the subject of aviation fatigue. Probably also the USAF -not so sure my good ole navy gave it much thought however.

At NWA we almost refused to fly a couple versions of B747-200 because of terrible crew rest facilities. Company improved them a little but the basic design was poor at best. I think we got them from Saudia or some rich desert country.

I think some airlines block off a first class seat for off duty pilots, which is not really a very good resting place.

OK, back again for my "NASA nap". Then start our drive to Tucson tomorrow leaving cold Minneapolis to Randy.

regards,

Dux


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Chad Kintz
Public Guest


Reged: 08/07/04
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Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #132121 - 11/02/06 05:43 AM

Quote:

I think some airlines block off a first class seat for off duty pilots, which is not really a very good resting place.




Yup, when I worked (not flew) for UAL back in mid-2001, the 777s used an F seat for augmented crews. I think they've since retrofitted them with lower-lobe rest facilities, but not sure.

--------------------
Dangerously overeducated.


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Scott Voigt retired controller
Top Gun


Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 1541
Loc: Trophy Club, Texas
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132126 - 11/02/06 06:19 AM

I learned what you are talking about flying the sim at AA. I was amazed at just how well it flew by the numbers when making approaches. I also tried some of the fly out of the sky stuff <G>... Lots of fun.

I was able to see one from the jumpseat one wonderful day going into Denver <G>. We were motoring along level with a PD decent. It was a very hazy day and you couldn't see much forward. Capt. was doing the briefing and talking about the next leg... I happened to look down and ask gee, is that Buckley down there???? <BG> Capt. looks down and says yup, CRAP! Watched power come off and start down. A few minutes later, get DEN in sight and approach clears us for a visual, but also asks if we are going to make it down in time <G>... Capt. says yes and turns to F/O and says, yeah you are gonna make it right???? F/O slows it up a bit and does the wing disappearing act <G>.... Capt. turns to me and says, ahhhh you didn't see the flaps and spoilers actually do that <G>... We made it... It was a fun trip...

--------------------
Scott H. Voigt
retired controller
Patrol Division
Trophy Club, Police Dept.


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Scott Voigt retired controller
Top Gun


Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 1541
Loc: Trophy Club, Texas
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #132127 - 11/02/06 06:24 AM

Dux;

I guess that the Navy did care about fatigue... At CFS this year we had one speaker who was a Navy Doc and now a civil one that did a LOT of sleep and fatigue studies in the military as well as using exotic chemicals for helping enhance flight crews that the FAA would frown upon <G>. He had a GREAT presentation...

regards

--------------------
Scott H. Voigt
retired controller
Patrol Division
Trophy Club, Police Dept.


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
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Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Scott Voigt retired controller]
      #132152 - 11/02/06 08:52 AM

Quote:

get DEN in sight and approach clears us for a visual, but also asks if we are going to make it down in time <G>... Capt. says yes and turns to F/O and says, yeah you are gonna make it right????




Right in the middle of a runway change at SLC I asked a HughesAir DC-9 if he could make it straight-in to 34L. (He thought he was 60 miles from 16R, I knew he was 35 miles from 34L <G>).

He replied: "Affirmative! But there is serious doubt that we will be able to bring the airplane with us."

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Richard Duxbury (Dux)]
      #132187 - 11/02/06 12:40 PM

Quote:

The B757 was a nice glider compared to the 727. However, we never used full flaps on our NWA 727's.

I almost always used speed brakes at various points in the decent and approach with the 757. -and made one go around because we could not get it slowed down from a slam dunk visual to DTW. It would have been a piece of cake with a 727!
Dux




My rule of thumb was IF you think you are going to need the gear to slow down, consider a go around. IF you actually do need the gear to slow down, just go ahead and go around.. avoid the unstabilized approach.

You could do 180-190 to the marker in the 727 and the MD-80 but not in the 757 or the 737. At least, I couldn't.


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Scott Voigt retired controller]
      #132188 - 11/02/06 12:45 PM

We had a guy in my class named Elmo who became a legend in his own time.. a small Puerto Rican who wore rose-colored glasses. A true piece of work...

Anyway, Elmo was famous for pushing the Tri-Motor and was noted for saying "Ju can neber be too high in a 727.." until one night going into ROA. Elmo got things screwed up and finally had to admit not even HE could get the 727 into the slot for that approach.


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #132190 - 11/02/06 12:50 PM

Quote:

Right in the middle of a runway change at SLC I asked a HughesAir DC-9 if he could make it straight-in to 34L. (He thought he was 60 miles from 16R, I knew he was 35 miles from 34L <G>).

He replied: "Affirmative! But there is serious doubt that we will be able to bring the airplane with us."




There is a huge difference between 'can' and 'should'. But the -9 could come down like a brick.

I jumpseated over to BHM one day on a Southern DC-9. I had been flying the 737 at PI and we came roaring into BHM when ATC cleared the guy for a visual. We were high, fast and right on top of the field. I started laughing and the Capt asked me what was so funny. I told him we would be half way to Biloxi in the 737 before we could turn base with all the energy he had.

Speedbrakes went out, gear came out and we dropped like a rock.. AND spooled up on final.

The gear on the Boeings was limited to 270kts.. and it was 320 on the McDougs. First flaps on the Boeing was around 230 (newer ones ..210 on older) while it was 280 on the DC-9/MD-80.

It is a hard concept to explain to people who don't fly that the ability to slow down quickly is really a good asset.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132197 - 11/02/06 01:13 PM

J - re>>Southern DC-9........Speedbrakes went out, gear came out and we dropped like a rock.. AND spooled up on final<<

Important, that "spoolup" <g>! But, unless you were on one of Southern's short "hardwings" (dash 10s), those high speed (280? 320?) leading edge devices sure covered up a virtual multitude of earlier poor planning deals.

>>limited to 270kts.. and it was 320 on the McDougs<<

Cuidado tho, some of those crash 10 models (I suspect, IIRC, it was those from EAL) had a slower gear limit, circa 210?) Was always important to remember whose game you were playing.

best, randy

Edited by Randy Sohn (11/02/06 01:14 PM)


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Jeremy Gratrix
AVSIG Member


Reged: 04/25/05
Posts: 1009
Loc: Nevada (CXP)
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132208 - 11/02/06 02:25 PM

J Wiley

>>...727 was one of the truly great flying machines...<<

If you say so.

Jeremy


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J. Wiley
Aviation Researcher


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 6326
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: Jeremy Gratrix]
      #132268 - 11/03/06 04:17 AM

Quote:

J Wiley

>>...727 was one of the truly great flying machines...<<

If you say so.

Jeremy




In the old jargon, the 727 was a "man's airplane!". The 737 was junior league. If you couldn't consistently land the 737 good, well... no room on the Varsity for you...<G>

The 727 was FLYIN'! The 737 was often 'just another day at the office...'

Still, even when it was just the office, it was good to be sitting in the window seat up front.

I take it you disagree???


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Scott Voigt retired controller
Top Gun


Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 1541
Loc: Trophy Club, Texas
Re: JetBlue Fatigue Experiment [Re: J. Wiley]
      #132337 - 11/03/06 12:38 PM

I really appreciated the 727 from both flying as well as controlling. You have to love an aircraft that can come down and slow down, or when you need it, do 380 KIAS <G>... I figured they were just burning the bugs off the nose to save cleaning later <G>...

I really wish that the airplane manufacturers would design aircraft that could slow down well with good speed brakes like the foker had...

regards

--------------------
Scott H. Voigt
retired controller
Patrol Division
Trophy Club, Police Dept.


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