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Reams Goodloe
Top Gun


Reged: 05/07/04
Posts: 2582
Loc: Kent, Washington
Finally - A Practical Electric GA aircraft design
      #426167 - 05/27/16 03:20 PM


http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/aviation/how-i-designed-a-practical-electric-plane-for-nasa

In case you have not seen the above link - it is fairly interesting...

I've been struggling to understand all the hype about the Solar Impulse. Whatever their motives, it all seems such a wasted effort on an impractical concept.

On the other hand, a fuel cell powered aircraft which can take 4 people at 150 mph in the same manner as a C182, that's quite an achievement.

Now, if there were just hydrogen refills available more places...<g>

- Reams-

Edited by Reams Goodloe (05/27/16 03:21 PM)


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Finally - A Practical Electric GA aircraft design [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #426169 - 05/27/16 05:05 PM

Quote:

I've been struggling to understand all the hype about the Solar Impulse. Whatever their motives, it all seems such a wasted effort on an impractical concept.



Oh, that's easy to understand. It's to illustrate the future of "clean energy". I think it's doing a marvelous job. <BG>

Where the public sees "Lindbergh", I see a public who have seen the results of Moore's law, but doesn't understand when it doesn't apply.

As for the article, I like the writer already. He realized early on the real competitor for his design was the SR22.


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Finally - A Practical Electric GA aircraft design [Re: Russell Holton]
      #426170 - 05/27/16 06:55 PM Attachment (176 downloads)

This is just down the street from me. Need some on airports.



--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.

Edited by Mase Taylor (05/27/16 06:56 PM)


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Rod Madsen (RDU)
AVSIG Member


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 881
Loc: RDU, NC
Re: Finally - A Practical Electric GA aircraft design [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #426171 - 05/27/16 08:12 PM

I understand UC Irvine has H2 for automobiles. CA is definitely in the lead in this area.

--------------------
Rod


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Terry Carraway
Top Gun


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 7098
Loc: Maryland
Re: Finally - A Practical Electric GA aircraft design [Re: Reams Goodloe]
      #426538 - 06/05/16 10:22 AM

Except, how do you get the hydrogen?

You do not mine or drill for it, you make it from electricity. And how do you make the electricity? At what efficiency?

--------------------
Terry
Mostly 0W3


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Bob Dubner
Super Imperial Member


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 4759
Loc: Extreme Upper West Side
Finally - A Practical Electric GA aircraft design [Re: Terry Carraway]
      #426548 - 06/05/16 01:06 PM

Wikipedia article on hydrogen production:

Currently, 95% of hydrogen production is chemical, meaning that it is
produced from fossil fuels.

Sadly, the current cheapest way of producing hydrogen is creating it from
natural gas, which involves the generation of about five tons of CO2 -- yes,
CO2 -- for each ton of hydrogen.

The good news is that because it's all happening in one place, you can at
least think about sequestering the CO2. The bad news is that nobody is
really doing it.

There are a number of ways of generating H2 from H2O; they seem to have
efficiencies in the 50% range. A number of these methods are dependent on
high temperatures; these can be achieved by solar arrays, or you can use
waste heat from nuclear reactors or conventional power plants.

There are also algae that merrily produce hydrogen if you feed them the right
algae chow. That's becoming commercially viable since they've reached the
threshold of 7-10% efficiency of sunlight-to-hydrogen.

Getting hydrogen the way you did in high school chem lab, by electrolysis,
seems to have theoretical efficiencies in the 50 to 60 percent range. Proton
exchange membrane electrolysers have theoretical limits in the 94% range;
it's estimated that technology will be in the 70% range by 2030.

One magic solution would be to use nuke plants, solar power, wind power, and
other clean sources to generate hydrogen, which can be piped and transported
and oxidized on site to generate heat for whatever purpose. There is also
the possibility of fuel cells to convert hydrogen more directly into
electricity.

We really have to move away from digging goop out of the ground, putting it
into our cars, and burning it at an average efficiency of 20% We are not
long from the time when that notion will seem as bizarre as having x-ray
flouroscopes in shoe stores.


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Finally - A Practical Electric GA aircraft design [Re: Bob Dubner]
      #426557 - 06/05/16 03:00 PM

Quote:

We really have to move away from digging goop out of the ground, putting it into our cars, and burning it at an average efficiency of 20% We are not long from the time when that notion will seem as bizarre as having x-ray flouroscopes in shoe stores.




It all comes down to price. I'd suggest that a successful economy and standard of living is directly tied to cheap energy. Any attempt to make fossil fuel more expensive via political action on a global scale will be less successful than the ban on nuclear weapons.

Last I knew, H2 still had significant issues in being able to safely store adequate quantities in a car. "Safely" in this case includes being safe in case of fire or accidents. H2 is far nastier than gasoline or diesel. There's a reason that car bombs are built by adding explosives to a car rather than slapping a detonator onto the gas tank.


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Bob Dubner
Super Imperial Member


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 4759
Loc: Extreme Upper West Side
Finally - A Practical Electric GA aircraft design [Re: Russell Holton]
      #426577 - 06/05/16 06:51 PM

Russell, the long-term One Big Problem with the economics of fossil fuel is
that none of the current models adequately take into account the fact that
once you burn fossil hydrocarbons, they are gone. We don't have any good way
of making more. We are completely ignoring the replacement cost.

The Other Big Problem with the economics of fossil fuels is that the current
models do not adequately take into account the problem of global warming.

If every gallon of a gas you bought included a reserve to cover the ultimate
costs of having to abandon, say, Manhattan, to rising sea levels, it would
be priced a lot more than a couple of bucks.

Nobody agrees more than I that standard of living is directly associated with
the costs of energy.

But it's also really cheap to just dump your sewage in the nearest stream.
Works great until the guy upstream of you comes to the same conclusion.

The Western world has had a real nice run just picking stuff up and burning
it. But it's not scaling globally -- just take a look at China and India
trying to duplicate the Western model with coal -- and we absolutely have to
start factoring in the costs of living cheaply off a non-renewable resource,
and of everybody living downstream of somebody else.

We need to get away from complete dependence on fossil fuels for much the
same reasons that once a group of people get much larger than a small
village, we get rid of outhouses and replace them with septic tanks and then
sewage processing plants.


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Russell Holton
AVSIG Member


Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 14136
Re: Finally - A Practical Electric GA aircraft design [Re: Bob Dubner]
      #426579 - 06/05/16 07:26 PM

Quote:

Russell, the long-term One Big Problem with the economics of fossil fuel is that none of the current models adequately take into account the fact that once you burn fossil hydrocarbons, they are gone. We don't have any good way of making more. We are completely ignoring the replacement cost.



If I was to be picky, I'd say biofuel is the replacement.

But we've been burning the stuff in the ground for generations and there seems to be several generations of the stuff left. That argument isn't going to get anyone to voluntarily pay more for energy until there's no choice.


Quote:

The Other Big Problem with the economics of fossil fuels is that the current models do not adequately take into account the problem of global warming.

If every gallon of a gas you bought included a reserve to cover the ultimate costs of having to abandon, say, Manhattan, to rising sea levels, it would be priced a lot more than a couple of bucks.



Good luck imposing such a restriction on Iran and North Korea. If nuclear weapons are worth flouting international law, cheap energy is even more so.

While I agree with your technical assessment, I think you're ignoring the realities of human and organizational behavior. The only way to get everyone to switch is to make it cost-competitive.

Cheaper and/or convenience has been behind every major revolution I can think of. And I don't think the technology is yet within the range of the magic wand of "mass production" to make alternative energy price competitive. Hence, I feel we need more research and less rush to implementation to get where we need to go.


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Reams Goodloe
Top Gun


Reged: 05/07/04
Posts: 2582
Loc: Kent, Washington
Re: Finally - A Practical Electric GA aircraft design [Re: Russell Holton]
      #426587 - 06/05/16 10:35 PM

This aircraft design is based on the Toyota Mirai automobile. It's H2 specs are as follows:

HYDROGEN TANKS

Storage Method Carbon fiber high-pressure tanks

Number of Tanks 2

Type Type-4

Material Three layer structure:
Inner layer: plastic liner (prevents hydrogen leakage)
Middle layer: carbon fiber reinforced plastic (structural element)
Surface layer: glass fiber reinforced plastic (protects outer surface from abrasion)
Fuel Compressed hydrogen gas
Maximum Filling Pressure 87.5 MPa
Normal Operating Pressure 70 MPa (approx. 10,000 psi)
Storage Density (Capacity) 5.7 weight %
Internal Volume 122.4 L Front: 60.0 L
Rear: 62.4 L

Hydrogen Storage Mass Approx. 5.0 kg


Refueling Time About 5 minutes

*************


FYI, NASA liked the design so well that they have followed up with a competition for a similar design 19 passenger aircraft.

- Reams


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