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Tom Tyson [SUW]
Glider Guider


Reged: 05/27/04
Posts: 4691
Loc: KSUW
Battle of Midway
      #391620 - 06/04/14 07:16 PM

June 4 - 7, 1942

Well done, gentlemen

--------------------
Tom Tyson-A&P

Pilots without Mechanics are just Pedestrians with fancy watches.


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 21214
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #391622 - 06/04/14 07:54 PM

D'accord.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Frank Van Haste [VKX]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 2700
Loc: Northern VA
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Tom Tyson [SUW]]
      #391658 - 06/05/14 10:10 AM

Tom, let me again take the opportunity to recommend Shattered Sword by Parshall and Tully to any that haven't read it. The authors went back to primary Japanese sources to describe just how bad a day the kido butai had -- and why.

Interesting point: Midway was the first time the IJN carrier pilots had run into the Dauntless. More than a couple of them had a nasty and terminal surprise when they found out that the aft ends of those blue airplanes would bite.

Frank


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #391670 - 06/05/14 12:00 PM

Quote:

Tom, let me again take the opportunity to recommend Shattered Sword

Frank




Thanks, Amazon says I'll have it day-after-tomorrow.

Bill

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Frank Van Haste [VKX]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 2700
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #391756 - 06/06/14 07:53 PM

I look forward to your thoughts after you've read it, Bill.

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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #395029 - 08/09/14 10:37 PM Attachment (194 downloads)

Quote:

I look forward to your thoughts after you've read it, Bill.




Truly an exhaustive treatment of the subject; 613 pages, including 11 appendices, 45 pages of endnotes and a nine page "selected" bibliography.

Scholarly without being tedious, the book held me from end-to-end, despite the fact that it was covering a story I thought I knew a lot about.

Without diminishing the significance of the battle, they prove pretty conclusively that it wasn't the near-run thing that has been previously portrayed. They show that the Japanese were profoundly wrong on the psychological, governmental, strategic, tactical and operational level, each of these flaws contributing to the outcome.

Everyone knows the story of the cruiserTone's floatplane's delayed and ambiguous contact report, but this is the first time I've seen anyone question the fact that the Japanese carriers had no assets devoted to reconnaissance, and relied on the meager aircraft of the surface fleet to do their scouting.

They devote an epilogue to debunking the common Western understanding of the battle which they assert is rooted in everyone using Mitsuo Fuchida as a primary source, despite proven inaccuracies and outright lies contained in his best-selling account of events. Fuchida, for example is the source for the common understanding that the Japanese were just moments from launching a strike when the American dive-bombers finally found them, which was patently untrue--if you look at the strike photos of the Japanese carriers, there are no aircraft nor wreckage on deck in any of them.



One of the things which was completely new information to me was the architectural short comings of the the Japanese carriers and the resulting slow operational cycle. Doctrine required all refueling and re-arming be carried out on the hangar deck (decks, actually, Akagi and Kaga had three, with resulting long and slow elevator runs.)

There's so much more, but y'all are going to have to read it for yourselves.

Edited by B. Butler (Oregonian) (08/09/14 10:46 PM)


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #395036 - 08/09/14 11:44 PM

Well, now you went and done it. I'm gonna have to order the book.

--------------------
Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible. - Bob Hoover 1922-2016 R.I.P.


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Frank Van Haste [VKX]
Top Gun


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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #395051 - 08/10/14 10:51 AM

Bill, that's an excellent review with which I concur in toto. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Frank


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #395053 - 08/10/14 11:24 AM

Billprime,

Slightly off subject, but did you ever get to read Fortunate Son?

the other bill


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #395054 - 08/10/14 11:26 AM

Quote:

Billprime,

Slightly off subject, but did you ever get to read Fortunate Son?

the other bill




Not yet. I'm on the library request list for it, but I suspect it has "wandered away" even though it is still in the catalog.

I'll pick one up at ABE and let you know. Thanx for the reminder.

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Rod Madsen (RDU)
AVSIG Member


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 881
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #395061 - 08/10/14 01:17 PM

Thanks for the great review. I just ordered the book for Kindle and read the forward. I already find it hard to put down. The Battle of Midway was a key part of Naval History that we studied in detail as Midshipmen in NROTC in 1954. Many of our instructors were actually there (in the Pacific in 1942).

--------------------
Rod


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Rod Madsen (RDU)]
      #395085 - 08/10/14 07:31 PM

Quote:

Many of our instructors were actually there (in the Pacific in 1942).




Yeah,

I had a high school math teacher who had been at Bataan and Cabanutuan.

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Mase Taylor
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 9446
Loc: SOCAL
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #395088 - 08/10/14 07:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Many of our instructors were actually there (in the Pacific in 1942).




Yeah,

I had a high school math teacher who had been at Bataan....




In 1968 I took a boat ride out on Manila Bay to Corregidor. It was not a formal tour, there was no guide, just me and some friends taking a boat ride and looking around.

I was stunned by the silence. It was totally quiet. The gun emplacements were still there, the aiming still set at their last firing positions. The tunnels into the interior were there. Everything was pretty much accessible. Some positions were overgrown with tropical vegetation.

I was pretty much overwhelmed by the history of it all, the preservation of everything, and the fact that nothing seemed to be guarded or restricted and anyone could just wander around and ruminate.

Edited by Mase Taylor (08/10/14 07:50 PM)


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Rod Madsen (RDU)
AVSIG Member


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 881
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #395095 - 08/10/14 09:17 PM

Well, my father was there too, but he wasn't in the Navy. He was in the Army in New Guinea and on northward with MacArthur. One time he was rescued by the Navy from an island near New Guinea (Good enough Island). After that experience he told me "Son, don't join the Army. Join the Navy. Those guys sleep between sheets and have chicken for dinner" We slept on the ground and ate whatever we could find". I took his advice.

--------------------
Rod


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Ward Miller POU-NY
Top Gun


Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 10508
Loc: New York
Battle of Midway [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #395098 - 08/10/14 09:49 PM

>> I had a high school math teacher who had been at Bataan . . . <<

Bill, in Japan I shared a room at the BOQ with a guy who survived the Bataan
Death March. He never talked about it, until one night we got drunk and he
unloaded. Amazing! He was maybe 5' 6" and 130#. I could never figure out
how he endured that awful 80 mile event when so many others died.


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Mase Taylor]
      #395100 - 08/10/14 10:17 PM

Quote:

took a boat ride out on Manila Bay to Corregidor




Concur, my crew and I did that on one of our Manila layovers, I was particulariy impressed with the dugouts and the medic's quarters.

best, randy


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Geoff Sjostrom - Chicago
Top Gun


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Posts: 4312
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #395103 - 08/11/14 12:46 AM

Quote:

I had a high school math teacher who had been at Bataan and Cabanutuan.




The raid on Cabanatuan is one of the great and too little known events of American history.

For those who want to know more about it, read "Ghost Soldiers" or see the movie "The Great Raid".


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Jack E. Hammond
AVSIG Member


Reged: 08/23/04
Posts: 8394
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Geoff Sjostrom - Chicago]
      #395141 - 08/12/14 05:26 AM

Dear Geoff,

I would like to see Ken Burns and PBS make a Civil War type series; only cover 12/7/1941 to 5/6/1942. This period of time during the 6 months after Pearl Harbor is not known -- by most Americans.

The main reason -- with the exception of Midway -- is hardly any books have been written about these six months. This last decade changed that:


Pearl Harbor - Has plenty of written sources.

Philippines - The authors G. Willford (Racing the Sunrise) and W. Bartsch especially when it comes to the Philippines and DEI theaters of war.

Malaysia/Singapore/Burma - These are covered by the series A Bloody Shambles. Maybe to well (all 3 volumes need a good editor).

Midway - Again, plenty of books, photos, etc.


Jack E. Hammond


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Jack E. Hammond]
      #395198 - 08/12/14 06:06 PM



Allow me to suggest also James Hornfischer's excellent Neptune's Inferno, a detailed account of the cruiser/destroyer battles around Guadalcanal in the Fall of 1942.

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 7864
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Jack E. Hammond]
      #395207 - 08/12/14 09:16 PM

Quote:

Dear Geoff,

I would like to see Ken Burns and PBS make a Civil War type series; only cover 12/7/1941 to 5/6/1942. This period of time during the 6 months after Pearl Harbor is not known -- by most Americans.

The main reason -- with the exception of Midway -- is hardly any books have been written about these six months. This last decade changed that:


Pearl Harbor - Has plenty of written sources.

Philippines - The authors G. Willford (Racing the Sunrise) and W. Bartsch especially when it comes to the Philippines and DEI theaters of war.

Malaysia/Singapore/Burma - These are covered by the series A Bloody Shambles. Maybe to well (all 3 volumes need a good editor).

Midway - Again, plenty of books, photos, etc.


Jack E. Hammond




A must read is "Pacific Crucible" by Ian W Toll. It covers the lead-up to Pearl Harbor through the Battle of Midway. ISBN 0393068137


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Ray Tackett
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 8892
Loc: Philadelphia, USA
Battle of Midway [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #395214 - 08/12/14 10:42 PM

Or Henry H. Adams' "1942 -- The Year That Doomed the Axis". It shows the
connections between the events of 1942, such as the Battle of Midway, and the
ultimate failure of the German and Japanese war efforts.

--------------------
Ray,

Owner, Lake Wood Be Gone

Turning quality lumber into sawdust and noise since 2013.


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Rick Durden
Top Gun


Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 4366
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #395509 - 08/20/14 11:11 PM

Frank,

You are a no-good, low-down agent of distraction from productive effort. It's all your fault that I ordered a copy of Shattered Sword and, thanks to Amazon Prime, got it two days later - while I was still traveling. I got home last Friday evening and started reading it. I just finished it - I'm behind on everything on my to-do list and have one client a little miffed at me. It's all your fault.

The book is superb. One of the best history books I've ever read.

Despite your actions that messed up my schedule for the last five days, thank you for recommending it.

Warmest regards,
Rick


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Frank Van Haste [VKX]
Top Gun


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 2700
Loc: Northern VA
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Rick Durden]
      #395516 - 08/21/14 09:07 AM

Rick:

Happy to be of service. :-)

Frank


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Rick Durden]
      #395519 - 08/21/14 11:48 AM

Quote:

last Friday evening and started reading it. I just finished it - I'm behind on everything on my to-do list




Exactly my experience...of course, I am retired.

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Rod Madsen (RDU)
AVSIG Member


Reged: 04/29/04
Posts: 881
Loc: RDU, NC
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #395520 - 08/21/14 12:33 PM

Quote:

Exactly my experience...of course, I am retired.



Me too. I just finished it, and i am retired. Great history.

--------------------
Rod


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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


Reged: 08/31/01
Posts: 23187
Loc: Savage, MN - U.S.A.
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Rick Durden]
      #395522 - 08/21/14 01:14 PM

Quote:

that messed up my schedule for the last five days




You gotta get retired, like Dux and I always say - "It's good to be retired".

best, randy


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Richard Palm (PAO)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 5388
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Jack E. Hammond]
      #396937 - 09/25/14 05:28 PM

Quote:

Dear Geoff,

I would like to see Ken Burns and PBS make a Civil War type series; only cover 12/7/1941 to 5/6/1942. This period of time during the 6 months after Pearl Harbor is not known -- by most Americans.




That period was covered in the first episode of his miniseries "The War," but only Pearl Harbor, the defeat in the Philippines, and some of what was happening at home (including submarine attacks off the east coast).


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Richard Palm (PAO)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 5388
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #396938 - 09/25/14 05:30 PM

Quote:

Tom, let me again take the opportunity to recommend Shattered Sword by Parshall and Tully to any that haven't read it. The authors went back to primary Japanese sources to describe just how bad a day the kido butai had -- and why.

Interesting point: Midway was the first time the IJN carrier pilots had run into the Dauntless. More than a couple of them had a nasty and terminal surprise when they found out that the aft ends of those blue airplanes would bite.

Frank




I have it loaded on my Kindle now.


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B. Butler (Oregonian)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/15/04
Posts: 9760
Loc: Ashland, Oregon
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Bill Bridges - 9S1]
      #397072 - 09/28/14 01:02 PM

Quote:

Billprime,

Slightly off subject, but did you ever get to read Fortunate Son?

the other bill




Yes just finished it. A remarkable account of spiritual journey.

I'm planning to read Chesty's biography soon.

Bill

--------------------
"Why not be a nihilist? A man has to believe in something."
-Bernie Gunther


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Bill Bridges - 9S1
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 6008
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: B. Butler (Oregonian)]
      #397110 - 09/28/14 11:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Billprime,

Slightly off subject, but did you ever get to read Fortunate Son?

the other bill




Yes just finished it. A remarkable account of spiritual journey.

I'm planning to read Chesty's biography soon.

Bill




Billprime,

The thing that I found interesting was the insight Lewis provided about his father (Chesty) as a father and a parent. It was refreshing to know that Chesty accepted Lewis for the type of person he was and did not try to remake him into something he wasn't.

the other bill


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Richard Palm (PAO)
Top Gun


Reged: 04/30/04
Posts: 5388
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Frank Van Haste [VKX]]
      #397390 - 10/03/14 03:36 PM

I'm on chapter two of Shattered Sword, and it's certainly an eye-opener.

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Richard Palm (PAO)]
      #434045 - 12/30/16 11:30 PM

Got the book for Christmas and am really looking forward to reading.

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Andrew Niemyer -KDLH
Top Gun


Reged: 09/18/04
Posts: 3353
Loc: Minnesota
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #434054 - 12/31/16 09:44 AM

Dave,
Shattered Sword is now considered one of the premiere English-language histories on the subject. The authors were at first dismissed by the self-regarded "professional" historians, but they were the ones who dug deeply into the vast amount of research done by the Japanese and published in their language.

It was from this mountain of facts, eye-witness accounts and data that they were able to dispel a huge amount of the mythology, factual errors and mis-statements that had been published and republished over the decades. Taken with Prange's Miracle at Midway and the most recent biography of Raymond Spruance, it makes a very accurate record of the events at Midway.

Best,
Andy


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Andrew Niemyer -KDLH]
      #434063 - 12/31/16 02:19 PM

Really looking forward to it.

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Scott Perdue (50F)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 1126
Loc: Texas
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Andrew Niemyer -KDLH]
      #434087 - 01/01/17 08:32 AM

Quote:

Dave,
Shattered Sword is now considered one of the premiere English-language histories on the subject. The authors were at first dismissed by the self-regarded "professional" historians, but they were the ones who dug deeply into the vast amount of research done by the Japanese and published in their language.

It was from this mountain of facts, eye-witness accounts and data that they were able to dispel a huge amount of the mythology, factual errors and mis-statements that had been published and republished over the decades. Taken with Prange's Miracle at Midway and the most recent biography of Raymond Spruance, it makes a very accurate record of the events at Midway.

Best,
Andy




I second the recommendation for Shattered Sword. Excellent. Also read John Lundstrum's own work on the Pacific campaign before Midway... really excellent.

--------------------
Gunny
www.eagleflyingmuseum.org


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Andrew Niemyer -KDLH
Top Gun


Reged: 09/18/04
Posts: 3353
Loc: Minnesota
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Perdue (50F)]
      #434090 - 01/01/17 11:05 AM

Gunny,
I, too, strongly endorse both of Lundstrom's companion volumes, The First Team and The First Team at Guadalcanal. Both books show remarkable scholarly research and the willingness to deep-dive the records. Again, lots of popular mythology is totally refuted.

It was Lundstrom who dispelled, via the factual evidence and records from both sides, the "US Navy aircraft were slaughtered by the Japanese until the F6F came on the scene" mythology that one still sees being published as fact. In point of fact, Lundstrom demonstrated that the USN-IJN/IJAAF ACM kill ratio (F4F vs A6M, etc.) was at worst even and in many cases better than 1:1.

Getting back to Shattered Sword, SPOILER ALERT Parshall, et. al. demonstrate that the vast majority of the IJN aircrews from the four carriers actually survived the sinking of their respective carriers and went back to Japan. This has led others to take a closer look at the long and bloody slug-fest in the Solomon Islands, 1942-43. It was there that the IJNAF was slowly and inexorably bled out of its very best aircrew.

Another great "Mythbuster" historical work, one that generated huge controversy in certain sectors, was Daniel Ford's seminal work on the AVG, Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942 Again, he had access to the IJAAF records from Indochina. First published in 1991, he's revised it twice now; I have the original as well as the latest revision. That historians I know and deeply respect in their own right, such as Barrett Tillman, give this work 5-star ratings, says a lot.

There Dave, we've just solved all your 2017 reading!

Best,
Andy


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Ralph Jones
Top Gun


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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Andrew Niemyer -KDLH]
      #434092 - 01/01/17 11:16 AM

Quote:

Another great "Mythbuster" historical work, one that generated huge controversy in certain sectors



Yeah, I remember the angry blowback.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
LS-4a N49LS 6R


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
Loc: ADS (Dallas, TX)
Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Andrew Niemyer -KDLH]
      #434096 - 01/01/17 11:54 AM

Thanks! I love it.

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Scott Perdue (50F)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 1126
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Andrew Niemyer -KDLH]
      #434148 - 01/02/17 08:11 AM

Andy-

I agree, Lundstrom in particular is doing very good History. I'd rather know the truth than the gloss.

Thanks for the pointer, just bought Ford's book. I would also recommend Rick Atkinson's US Army series for WWII.

--------------------
Gunny
www.eagleflyingmuseum.org


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Andrew Niemyer -KDLH
Top Gun


Reged: 09/18/04
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Perdue (50F)]
      #434149 - 01/02/17 10:22 AM

Gunny,
Funny you mention Atkinson, I'm about 1/4 way through the final volume of the "Liberation Trilogy." I think his three volumes on the US Army in the African, Sicilian/Italian and Western Europe to be very good works. The right amount of tactical, strategic and political history for an excellent primary resource on the topic.

I note he's unsparing in analyzing error where and when it happened, but he's also willing to give praise to many of the same actors when it is due. If someone wanted to do some "deep diving" without bogging down into "daily war diary" level, Atkinson and Ambrose, when read together, is an excellent combination IMHO.

Let us know what you think of Ford when you're done.

Best,
Andy


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
Top Gun


Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 8469
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Andrew Niemyer -KDLH]
      #434165 - 01/02/17 08:12 PM

Already picking up some great points in the first 50 pages. Author already focuses on the early great success of the Japanese navy, how far they stretched their lines and how they split their forces.

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Ralph Jones
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Andrew Niemyer -KDLH]
      #434166 - 01/02/17 08:19 PM

Just finished it. Interesting indeed...thanks for the tip.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
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Scott Perdue (50F)
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Andrew Niemyer -KDLH]
      #434182 - 01/03/17 06:43 AM

Andy-

Wilco. I've always liked Ambrose and still do. But I'm a little more skeptical of him and his methods nowadays. I found out he researched the D-Day campaign by riding around in a tour bus. Seems a little sketchy to me. You don't always need to walk the ground to do good history. But when you do it should be in more depth than a tour bus window. I like to get an infantry man's eye view when I walk the ground. The Hedgerows in Normandy stunned me and Brecourt Manor truly opened my eyes, there are things you just can't grasp unless you walk the ground.

Speaking of primary resources. When I was researching my masters thesis I was stationed in England and got to use the Royal Archives. Looked through actual memos and correspondence and such from WWII. They had stuff there that dated back to the 1200's. It was fascinating. That is primary source!

--------------------
Gunny
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Ralph Jones
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Perdue (50F)]
      #434189 - 01/03/17 10:52 AM

I remember several points where he was clearly paraphrasing technical references that he didn't fully understand. There was a description of the B-17 (don't remember which book, but it wasn't The Wild Blue, which was all B-24 stuff) where he wasn't clear on the crew positions; he gave the correct crew size as 10, but described each position as if nobody did double duty -- which would have added up to 14 or more. There were contradictory statements within a page or two of one another.

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Scott Dunham (RDU)
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Perdue (50F)]
      #434292 - 01/06/17 01:06 PM

>> Royal Archives...

The Public Records Office out by Kew Gardens? Yes, very cool. Penny Wilson asked me to research her father's war experiences (flew a Hurricane in the Battle of Britain) and my wife and I had a trawl through the RAF squadron records. Found him with no problem at all, got copies of his mission reports along with transfers, etc. Absolutely fascinating - and yes, they've got a ton of stuff out there.

When our son was born we had to register the event with the records people in Hammersmith. The clerk pulled out this humongous leather-bound volume and carefully hand-wrote his details into the ledger. I asked how far back they had records like that. She looked at the ceiling for a few seconds and said they had books back to about 1500 in the basement, but the "really old stuff" (!) was held at the Public Records Office. Amazing...


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Scott Perdue (50F)
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Dunham (RDU)]
      #434314 - 01/07/17 09:02 AM

Scott-

<<The Public Records Office out by Kew Gardens?

Yes, thats it. I couldn't remember the name. I used to ride the underground to get there and as I remember the last bit was actually above ground. It is on the southside of London. Too many penguins have fallen off the ice berg to remember exact details;)

You know the interesting thing about that recorded history is the Brits started doing it because of Richard the Lion Hearted. To pay his ransom after his last crusade they had to get serious about taxation and records. Life and history is unintended consequences;)

--------------------
Gunny
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Scott Dunham (RDU)
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Perdue (50F)]
      #434398 - 01/10/17 12:10 AM

Yup, SW of London on the District Line, one stop before the last station at Richmond. We lived just on the other side of the river, past Richmond in Twickenham. A lot of the Underground actually isn't - once you get out of central London, it's generally on deck.

The Brits do like their history. I was just floored when the registrar hauled out that giant ledger and then gave us hand-written birth certificates. Charles Dickens would have felt right at home except for the ballpoint pen.


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #434512 - 01/14/17 03:50 PM

Quote:

Just finished it. Interesting indeed...thanks for the tip.




Ralph -- I have now, too, what a great read. Apart from the obvious excellent operational analysis of flight deck operations, the writing style was most enjoyable, too. The authors are no slouches with their craft.

Andy Alson, you'd enjoy this, whenever they'd mention pby patrols or airmen rescues I was thinking of you and your dad. It's in the Westchester library system, I'll be returning the Chappaqua copy in a few days after I peruse the appendices a bit more.


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #434519 - 01/14/17 07:53 PM

I'm right where they hit three of the carriers within a short time. Great read.
Tough to see us really take it on the chin with uncoordinated attacks up to this point. Some very brave, but mostly ineffective attacks up to this point. My heart goes out to those guys.


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Ralph Jones
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #434522 - 01/14/17 08:17 PM

Yeah...a battle of that geographic size, at that level of command & control technology, was essentially a knife fight in the dark.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #434530 - 01/14/17 11:22 PM

Quote:

I'm right where they hit three of the carriers within a short time. Great read.
Tough to see us really take it on the chin with uncoordinated attacks up to this point. Some very brave, but mostly ineffective attacks up to this point. My heart goes out to those guys.




Dave -- The best you can say is that luck was with us that week, and we did get (much) better as the war went on learning quickly from our mistakes. The IN, not so much....

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #434539 - 01/15/17 12:29 PM

Scott,

Battle of Midway or Shattered Sword (dangling modifier mode)? Looks like they are both available for the Kindle.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Andy


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #434542 - 01/15/17 02:09 PM

Now reading where the Japanese remaining forces proceeded to attack the American carriers after losing three of their four. Amazing. Seems they just stayed with their original plan even though now vastly out numbered. They were attack oriented, and they struck when they could have put their remaining carrier in a position to save it. Commanders were very structured thinkers. Didn't seem to adjust to circumstances or new information.

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Ralph Jones
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #434544 - 01/15/17 02:40 PM

I think it comes down to the dubious theory developed in the interwar period for air-attacking a fleet. In principle the fighters had to arrive first and suppress enemy fighters, clearing the way for the dive bombers. The latter would bomb the decks, suppressing AA fire, and then the torpedo bombers would lumber in to do the actual sinking.

But that meant launching three contingents of airplanes, each with different cruise speeds, and expecting them to get there with exquisite timing. It could only work if you knew precisely where the enemy would be. In practice, they had to launch without even knowing where the enemy was at launch time. Guaranteed confusion.

--------------------
Ralph Jones
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Randy Sohn
Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres


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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Ralph Jones]
      #434546 - 01/15/17 04:25 PM

Quote:

Guaranteed confusion.




Oooohhh-whhheeeee, concur! FIGMO!

best, randy


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #434547 - 01/15/17 07:32 PM

Quote:

Scott,

Battle of Midway or Shattered Sword (dangling modifier mode)? Looks like they are both available for the Kindle.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Andy




Andy -- Shattered Sword. Quite a great bit of historical scholarship there.


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #434554 - 01/16/17 11:35 AM

Thanks, got it.

By the way, have you read "Shoe Dog". Story of Phil Knight and the history of the Nike company. I really enjoyed it and have a copy here if you'd like to read it.

Andy


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #434555 - 01/16/17 11:41 AM

Tough reading on the Japanese casualty side last night. Many killed or injured and very little if any medical help on the carriers. On one carrier, it talked about badly burned giving up and walking back to where there were fires rather than lying on deck in pain with no treatment. Of course, it's giving the Japanese side, not ours. But still tough read.

Defeat finally registering with the Japanese fleet leaders.


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #434571 - 01/16/17 06:55 PM

Quote:

Thanks, got it.

By the way, have you read "Shoe Dog". Story of Phil Knight and the history of the Nike company. I really enjoyed it and have a copy here if you'd like to read it.

Andy




Andy -- No haven't read it. I'll put it in the queue! Right now, backed up and circling with my reading list, I'm presently following a canoe trip down the Cape Fear River in eastern NC.


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #434572 - 01/16/17 06:55 PM

Dave -- Yes, a very bad scene. I wasn't so happy to read about the execution of our flyers who were rescued out of the drink.

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #434575 - 01/16/17 07:27 PM

Quote:

Dave -- Yes, a very bad scene. I wasn't so happy to read about the execution of our flyers who were rescued out of the drink.




They had a completely different view of the individual and the worth of life.
Not sticking up for them, they raped pillaged and plundered and brought us into that mess. Still, hard to read about the pain and suffering (on each side).


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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #434576 - 01/16/17 07:29 PM

I don't know if I just didn't remember, or if it wasn't emphasized, but the air assets on Midway contributed much more than I had recollected.

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Dave Siciliano (ADS)
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #434579 - 01/16/17 07:52 PM

"Uncaring attitude with which the Japanese military treated its human capital"

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Bill Bridges - 9S1
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #434583 - 01/16/17 08:13 PM

Quote:

Dave -- Yes, a very bad scene. I wasn't so happy to read about the execution of our flyers who were rescued out of the drink.




Scott,

Just think how it feels when it's someone you know and there is nothing that "you" can do. :(

Bill


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Dave Siciliano (ADS)]
      #434588 - 01/16/17 10:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Dave -- Yes, a very bad scene. I wasn't so happy to read about the execution of our flyers who were rescued out of the drink.




They had a completely different view of the individual and the worth of life.
Not sticking up for them, they raped pillaged and plundered and brought us into that mess. Still, hard to read about the pain and suffering (on each side).




Dave - I'm in agreement with you. Their guys showed a lot of bravery at Midway, in the air and on the surface.

--------------------
www.scottdyercfi.com


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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #434598 - 01/17/17 10:59 AM

Looks like you have the only copy in the Westchester library system. Got a request in for when you return it (no rush!).

Andy


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Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
Top Gun


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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Andy Alson (HPN/NY)]
      #434604 - 01/17/17 01:15 PM

Andy -- It's back at the library, as of just now (emulating Randy, typing on the library confuser, gotta pick up the video Scotty Dunham mentioned...).

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Andy Alson (HPN/NY)
THE TOP GUN!


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Re: Battle of Midway [Re: Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]]
      #434636 - 01/18/17 09:03 AM

Thanks. We should get a call after it's ferried over to our local branch.

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