Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
05/20/09 08:04 PM
Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi there,
I am on my 4th week of dual instruction. I have been flying about 3 or 4 times per week. My instructor is very experienced and I have learned many things from him already. My problem is with the flare when landing a Cessna 172M. I don't think I know what I am doing and although I started to use the rudders to align the plane to the center of the runway better (it was a mess a week ago) my landings are really hard.

I wonder if I can get some tips and tricks executing the flare to make my landing more smooth.

Thank you in advance,

Rf


Gil Buettner [KAUW]
(Top Gun)
05/20/09 08:29 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

One thing that might help is to look all the way down to the far end of the runway, instead of the patch of pavement where you expect to touch down. If you have the correct landing attitude that will help you keep the airplane aligned with the runway. The tricky part is to continually add back pressure in the flare without adding so much that you balloon and start to climb. If that happens, release some of the back pressure but be ready to add it right back in once the airplane starts to settle.

The real key is to have the final approach speed nailed. Too fast and you will struggle forever getting it right.

You will get it. Everyone has some problems with the flare in a 172 at first, but practice helps a ton. And good for you for flying that often.


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
05/20/09 09:09 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Thanks Gil!
I appreciate your help and I am going to give it a try tomorrow looking at the end of the runway and keeping it aligned or under the nose of the plain somehow until my rear wheels touch the ground.


John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]
(Top Gun)
05/20/09 09:33 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Greetings,

You are describing one of the areas of instruction that is very difficult to do without practice, and just getting a feel for what is happening. In addition to Gil's good advice, I have one additional suggestion:

Work with your instructor to separate tasks. If you are focusing on your alignment with the runway (rudders) before you have figured out the right pitching motion in the flare, your brain is trying to do two different things at once. Learn one skill first, perhaps by asking your instructor to assist with the runway alignment while you focus on the flare, or have the instructor focus on the flare while you work on runway alignment with the rudders.

Once you have each task figured out separately, then combine them.

Good Luck! I have a student that is a few weeks away from facing this very issue :)

John


Anne Umphrey (KBED)
(Top Gun)
05/20/09 09:46 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Welcome!

Good luck and keep at it. You are in the right place to ask questions.

One thing, on Avsig we use our real names, no handles.

Anne


Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
(AVSIG Member)
05/20/09 10:02 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

One thing to think about which I always found helpful is: don't try to make the plane land, try to keep it from landing by holding it just above the runway. The plane will settle in all by itself.

Also, ditto on the other good advice you already received.


Bill Bridges - 9S1
(Top Gun)
05/20/09 10:08 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

I have a student that is a few weeks away from facing this very issue :)





Is there a minimum number of dual hours a student must have before they are alloweed to solo? Since I learned to fly in military in 1969 I really have no reference. The Army's idea was you got the hang of it real quick or went to the infantry :).

Bill


Mat Waugh
(AVSIG Member)
05/20/09 10:16 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

All good suggestions.

I was always of the opinion that it's very hard to "teach" landings, you just have to practice until you get them. The role of the instructor is to impart as much wisdom as possible and protect the nosewheel.

If it's available to you then you might want to try flying with another instructor. Sometimes that instructor has a particular point of view, tip, feedback, that suddenly makes it all click for you. I've seen that work more than once, and I've also seen it have no affect whatsoever.

Mat


Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
(Top Gun)
05/20/09 10:32 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Bill -- No such regulatory limitations, min or max.

Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
(AVSIG Member)
05/21/09 12:25 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Mat,

<<you might want to try flying with another instructor. Sometimes that instructor has a particular point of view, tip, feedback, that suddenly makes it all click for you. I've seen that work more than once>>

Worked like a charm for me during my PPL days. First instructor had 13,000 hrs, 10,000 of which were CFI. Smart guy, seen it all, but couldn't teach. My hours kept piling up and I was hardly progressing. Next instructor - 800 hrs, Part 141 school, knew how to teach and I was off to the races. Solo and check ride in no time.


Dan Barclay [ORG]
(Top Gun)
05/21/09 12:46 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Gill's advice is right on target. It's hard to force yourself to look at the
*far* end of the runway but, trust us, it's what you need to do if you're not
doing it.

The advice about getting the tasks down one at a time is good as well. One
exercise that your instructor will likely do with you at one point is to go
to an airport with a very long runway. Fly down the runway very low, almost
landing. Maybe lightly touch the upwind wheel with a crosswind. That will
help you pull it together.

Again, avoid the tendency to look at the runway right in front of the
airplane. That's what most of us will try to do by default. You'll get a
better "big picture" of pitch and alignment if you look down the runway and
let your peripheral vision tell you where you are.

Dan


sreyoB yrraL
(AVSIG Member)
05/21/09 01:01 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

How many total landings do you have in your logbook so far?

Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
05/21/09 09:41 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Thank you guys for all the feedback. Now I have somthing to work with. I am sorry about the Rf signature, I get kind of lazy these days. :-)
I have about 15 hrs of dual instruction, I am 48 yo and had no clue about aviation before starting this training.

In my opinion, you guys all right on the money. Although my primary instructor is very good, for some reason I wasn't understanding his commands very well and I got kind of frustrated while the instructor was confident that with time, everything would come together.

About a week ago I started flying with a second instructor who is very young but I learned few tricks about flying around the pattern, maintaining pitch and altitude on slow flights, etc from this young instructor.

Flying with two different instructors has helped me a lot and I think that it has also accelerated my learning experience. At the beginning I was worried that it would offend my primary instructor but so far that hasn't happened.

I got the idea from the book "Your Pilot's License" from Jerry A. Eichengerger. Where he explains the importance of picking the right instructors, the different reasons to be an instructor the CFIs have, etc.

You guys are helping a lot because the most frustrating thing to me has been not knowing what is it I am doing wrong.

Bill, I think Scott is right, there is not limitation to be allowed for the solo. Everyting is at your instructor's discretion and I am not sure but I think there is a written test and a physical exam (Class 3 medical exam) you have to pass before the solo (Maryland State).

Thanks,

Roger


Anne Umphrey (KBED)
(Top Gun)
05/21/09 10:33 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

That also works for hovering and landing a helicopter, also jumping a horse over the fence.

With the former, you are using your total vision especially your peripheral vision to assess where you are. In landing if you look down 9 times out of 10 your nose will go where your eyes are and you won't land flat on the skids. Not a good thing.

With jumping if you look down you will disrupt the horses balance and that is not a good thing either. <G> Let the horse determine how high and how far he has to jump. Keep your eyes on the horizon and you will have good balance. All that helped me when learning to fly/hover the helicopter.

Now, it "did" take me a long time to land an airplane. They just don't want to come to a hover on the numbers.

Anne


Mick Ruthven
(AVSIG Member)
05/21/09 10:33 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

My experience when I was taking flying lessons a long time ago was that I learned different things from different instructors and that was a good thing.

Quote:

Flying with two different instructors has helped me a lot and I think that it has also accelerated my learning experience.




sreyoB yrraL
(AVSIG Member)
05/21/09 11:24 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

How many landings do you have logged?


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
05/21/09 11:41 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

I have practice with the instructors about 15 to 20 "touch and go" over the last 2 weeks. The instructors usually take me to an airport with a long runway and no so much traffic. On my own, I have only done it about 4 or 5 times with the instructor giving advice. Like I said before, my landings still horrible. I am going back today since the weather remains good for VFR.

Roger


sreyoB yrraL
(AVSIG Member)
05/21/09 12:06 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

Go to your logbook and count up how many total landings you have logged. I have some comments to offer but want to know how many landings you've done so far to put them in the proper context.


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
05/21/09 12:16 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

sreyoB,

I am sorry, I don't have the logbook with me right now but I will get back to you this evening after the flight with the exact amount. Thanks.

Roger


Ray Tackett
(Top Gun)
05/21/09 01:02 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi Roger,

Welcome to Avsig!

I show my students the similarity between the landing flare and the entry to slow flight or a power-off stall. In the air, you can practice slowing to a power-off stall, maintaining altitude perfectly (keep raising the nose to maintain lift) until the airplane won't do it any more. Of course, you stay pointed at some visual reference on the horizon the whole time, too.

In the air, you'll pitch down and recover. One foot above the runway, you'll land. The pitch-down part of the stall doesn't happen right away. You mush down tail-first for a bit until you develop a little vertical speed. With a runway just below your wheels, there's no room to develop much vertical speed.

That leaves the problem of judging your flare height, which depends upon airspeed, descent rate, and airplane performance. The route to the right flare height is the same as the route to Carnegie Hall -- practice. It helps if you're consistent about your approach angle and airspeed at first. If each approach is the same, the flare looks and feels the same. Later on, you can experiment with the effects of being flat, steep, fast, or slow, strong headwind, no wind, etc.

Ray


Anne Umphrey (KBED)
(Top Gun)
05/21/09 02:34 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

Although ultimately every landing is a little different from every other one due to winds and other factors, it is somewhat like learning to ride a bicycle if you can remember back then. One would think how in the world will I ever be able to stay upright on two wheels, then all of a sudden one day you are and you never look back. Now you probably couldn't not stay up on a bike even if you tried. It is the same thing with landings. At first it seems impossible to do this but then one day you do it. Your body and your brain form some new synapses and it clicks in.

I learned to fly a helicopter before learning to fly an airplane. My body had to learn a completely new thing in order to hover. Then when I transitioned to airplanes I had a tough time learning to land because it was so different from landing a helicopter, from the sight picture (which you are struggling with) to airspeed and a whole host of things. It took me a long time, but eventually it too "clicked in" and I could land the airplane. Often it wasn't pretty, but I got it down without bending anything. You will too.

Don't beat yourself up, let your eyes and your brain work at the problem and you will be able to land. I guarantee it.

Anne


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
05/21/09 03:41 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Thanks Ray.
That was a good lesson about slow flight. I practiced that with my instructor about 2 times but I need more practice since sometimes I start looking at the altimeter and my pitch starts changing, etc.....

Anne and everybody else, I appreciate the words of encouragement and all the advice I got. I am printing all your postings to review them before my flight so I can practice today if time and instructor allow.

Here is something I have to share with all of you. This happened yesterday close to 0W3 where I go for my lessons. The pilot, Terry is 62 yo guy, very nice guy and he was my instructor's student as well. He and the other person in the aircraft walk out of this situation without major scrash but as you can see the plain suffered some damage.

http://www.velozia.com/?p=1667

Have a good evening everybody. I'll check with you later.


Jim Gifford
(Top Gun)
05/21/09 06:13 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

I am glad the pilot and passenger walked away after coming to a stop against a tree at the end of their emergency landing.

So far, your landings are better than THAT, yes? So feel good about the learning process.

With practice, the flare for landing will get smoother and you will be a better judge of how to use the yoke to position the nose just right for landing at the end of a smooth flare, continually shedding airspeed and altitude according to plan, arriving on the runway without drama.

The key is practice. It is a complex hand-eye-foot coordination exercise and you need to complete the process many times before your brain will be able to map the NEXT landing you attempt against a good sight picture from your other successful landings. You are training your brain with every landing, whether it is a smooth one or a thumper or a "Hey, what was that squeak? Oh. I didn't expect the main wheels to be down just yet."

Hang in there, and keep telling us how the training progresses. We love to hear from new student pilots, and there has been a bit of a hiatus recently... so you're most welcome here in the forum and I wish you well in learning how to fly (and land) safely and smoothly.

Also, try to stay out of trees when flying... but if you must fly into a tree, do what your 62-year-old acquiantance did and fly into the tree gently enough to walk away smiling.


Dan Barclay [ORG]
(Top Gun)
05/21/09 06:17 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

>> With the former, you are using your total vision especially your
>> peripheral vision to assess where you are. In landing if you look down 9
>> times out of 10 your nose will go where your eyes are and you won't land
>> flat on the skids. Not a good thing.

I wish I'd known that back when I tried to land a helicopter. A guy that
owed me a favor got permission from his boss to let a couple of us fly a Jet
Ranger (not exactly solo naturally). By the time it was my turn it was dusk
and I figured, what the heck, if I can just keep the landing light pointed at
the same spot on the ground...

It's hard to explain just how dumb that is, and particularly embarrassing for
an engineer, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. It turns out that
the physics for that approach just don't work, but I'm guessing you know that.

Fortunately the pilot was a Viet Nam guy who had saved much worse, probably
while taking fire.

FWIW, hovering seemed a lot like trying to stand on one foot on top of a
beach ball. One day I'll go take some actual lessons.

Dan


Anne Umphrey (KBED)
(Top Gun)
05/21/09 08:44 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

By all means take some lessons. If you can get over the fact that at first it is a humbling experience, you will really love it, and feel a great sense of accomplishment from being able to float in one place with air above you, air in front of you, air in back of you, air beside you, and air below you.

Anne


Ray Tackett
(Top Gun)
05/21/09 08:54 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

>>> ,,, airplane. They just don't want to come to a hover on the numbers.

Depends on the headwind and the airplane. I've done it, though the hover
was not nearly as stable as I learned to do later in a helicopter. I've also
taken off in a lightly loaded 172 in less than two fuselage lengths.

Of course, it's hard to get anywhere upwind after that.


Kcid LlirreM
(Top Gun)
05/22/09 09:00 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Take lessons from the guy I saw on Ripleys the other night. He can stack 4 bowling balls on top of each other and they don't fall, at least right away.

Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
05/22/09 09:27 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi guys,
I am back and I owe you the amount of hrs doing TOL's logged by the instructor.
I am looking at the logbook right now and among other maneuvers this is what I see:

TOL, slow flight 1.4
TOL's windy 1.9
TOL's rwy 28 1.7
TOL's .7
TOL's 35-28 1.5
slow flight-rectangular pattern - TOL's 2.8
T/L 1.1

Total: 9.8 hrs

I can't say that I improved a lot yesterday but following your suggestions I definitely feel more confident and I am finally looking at the end of the rwy.

This time I experienced the following problems in different attempts:
- Leveled the plain looking at the end of the rwy but I was too high from the ground and I messed it up making altitude corrections.
- Still having timing problems finding the proper and exact moment to flare and I get feedback from my instructor to "point the nose down", "level the plain", "pull back now".... When I follow his advice it gets better but to be honest, I still having issues.

Anyway, yesterday was a beautiful day and I enjoyed very much flying from our home base 0W3 to Martin's airport where we performed the TOL's. Like Anne said, there is something magical about having the air and the view all around us.

I read somewhere that a very financially successful person expressed that being rich was ok. However, for this person the fun part was the journey where she met many interesting people and overcoming all the challenges of her industry.

My point is that I am enjoying the training as much as I am going to enjoy it the day when everything clicks in terms of landing. I also enjoy and learn reading all your postings where you share your experience with a rookie like me. LOL

I never thought I would find so much help here. As a matter of fact, my friend Mike Campos (he is here somewhere) was the one who encouraged me to post my problems and concerns here and I am glad I did that.

Anyway, I am going back for more this evening! Can’t wait! This flying thing is addictive!

Roger


Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
(Top Gun)
05/22/09 10:58 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger -- Oh, heavens help us...Campos? You might have mentioned THAT
salient fact in the first message.

All advice retracted! <G>


Ray Tackett
(Top Gun)
05/22/09 11:51 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

Quote:

looking at the end of the rwy but I was too high from the ground and I messed it up making altitude corrections.




Don't get caught up in "landing expectation", especially this early in your training. Absent an emergency in which you get only one shot, landing is optional. If you don't like what's happening, GO AROUND! Go-arounds should be part of your training anyhow.

When I say "don't like what's happening", I really mean "don't like". You do not need a tangible reason such as being off altitude. If anything makes you uncomfortable about a landing, whether you know what it is or not, go around.

There are way too many mishaps caused by pilots trying to salvage a botched approach or a misjudged flare. If you read the thousands of NTSB reports about landing mishaps, you will see "collided with terrain", "collided with the ground", "collided with trees", etc. You will never see "collided with the sky".

My final landing on my private pilot checkride involved two go-arounds. There was a gusty crosswind plus "checkride nerves" which led to "arrivals" I did not want to finish. Each time, the examiner praised my judgement for going around. The landing I completed was a perfect textbook demonstration of a crosswind landing.

Ray


sreyoB yrraL
(AVSIG Member)
05/22/09 01:17 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

What I was looking for was the number of landings that you'd done, not the flight time, but with about 10 hours of total time I can tell that you're right where you should be. I wanted the number of landings as I always found that the landings seemed to come together at around the 75 landing point. I wouldn't get too concerned about it until you're well over 100 and still not landing on your own.


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
05/22/09 02:04 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

"My final landing on my private pilot checkride involved two go-arounds. There was a gusty crosswind plus "checkride nerves" which led to "arrivals" I did not want to finish. Each time, the examiner praised my judgement for going around. The landing I completed was a perfect textbook demonstration of a crosswind landing"

Good point Ray! For some reason until now I never thought about GO around as an option even though I saw people doing that. I'll keep that in mind. It's better to cautious than sorry. :-)

"I wanted the number of landings as I always found that the landings seemed to come together at around the 75 landing point. I wouldn't get too concerned about it until you're well over 100 and still not landing on your own"

You are making me feel better sreyoB. I'll keep those numbers in mind.

Thanks,

Roger


sreyoB yrraL
(AVSIG Member)
05/22/09 02:16 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Don't focus too much on the numbers, they're just a rough average. Use them just to understand that a student with 30 or 40 landings isn't going to be making smooth touchdowns very often.

Ron Rosenfeld (EPM)
(Public Guest)
05/22/09 03:16 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

<... until now I never thought about GO around as an option >>

I'm not sure about now, as I'm not an instructor, but certainly with
experience you will (should) find that **landing** is the option. You should
**always** be ready to do a go-around. If, perchance, things seem to look
OK, then go ahead and land.


Bill Bridges - 9S1
(Top Gun)
05/22/09 03:35 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

Don't focus too much on the numbers, they're just a rough average. Use them just to understand that a student with 30 or 40 landings isn't going to be making smooth touchdowns very often.






I agree. When I soloed I had 9.1 hours, 22 landings, and it was my 11th day of training. One advantage I had was I was flying everyday. All my landings were power off and full flaps to short fields so my sight picture tended to be much more in front of me. I did not get really comfortable and proficient until close to 40 hours and maybe 100 landings(primary checkride).

Bill


Dan Barclay [ORG]
(Top Gun)
05/22/09 04:21 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

>> I'll keep those numbers in mind.

As Larry said, forget the numbers and quit trying to meet them. Fly the
airplane.

You're about the same age I was when I started flying (I was 47). In talking
with a number of instructors since then I find that they see us "older" guys
over-analyzing things and I was certainly guilty of that.

My daughter just got in the airplane and flew it.

Get the airplane close to the ground (below the definition of "too high")
THEN look at the far end of the runway.

Point the airplane down the runway with the rudders and apply enough
backpressure to keep from touching down but not enough to climb.

When the nose comes up "just enough" (you'll hafta figure that part out) then
hold it there (just quit pulling back, that's all).

You do not need to land the airplane, it will just happen.

Relax, enjoy yourself.

Dan


Ray Tackett
(Top Gun)
05/22/09 04:27 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

As another has already said, at 9.8 hours, you are having the trouble you
should at the moment. I'd like to see more slow flight and stall practice
before landing attempts in general, but that must be adapted to each
individual student. Your instructor is the only one who has actually been in
an airplane with you, so his/her estimate must prevail.

Ray


Tina Gonsalves (7B6)
(Top Gun)
05/22/09 07:37 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hey, Mike is the one who got me started...!!! <g>

Mike Campos [CA]
(Top Gun)
05/22/09 08:39 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi Roger,

I am glad you joined, you can see I was right that you will get a lot of good advise and support from the good bunch here.

When I started training I went through some rough bouts of motion sickness, I almost quit, but the kind words and advise I received here kept me going, also I had the same problems you are having with landing and the tips helped a lot. Stop beating yourself, you'll get it sooner or later.

Once in a while you may want to just go up for a fun flight; for my first night flight my instructor asked me what I wanted to do, I told him I wanted to relax and take the Hudson River tour; what a night! <g>.


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
05/23/09 07:31 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Good morning guys,

Hey, I got so much of good feedback here that I don't know where to start but let's start with a big THANK YOU ALL!.

Yesterday was a better day for me. Practiced some slow flights with the instructor and then we practiced some TOL’s on one of the grass rwys that we have at 0W3.

I am sure the grass makes a difference but guess what….my 3 landings were really smooth!!! Yupi!! ;-)
The first time the instructor corrected my pitch turning to base and to final. I realized that all this time I had the tendency to leave the nose of the plain pointing a little upward among other mistakes.

You probably won’t believe it but I had time enough to put together in my mind couple of suggestions I got from you guys such as get closer to the ground, level off slowly, look at the end of the runway and let the plain sink while pulling the yoke to my chest slowly and hold it. It was a great feeling. Today I am trying on the other rwys with another instructor since the one I flew with yesterday is going to Ocean City (beach resort).

On another note, Florida’s weather is beautiful but the economy there went down the hill like in many other parts of the country and I convinced my brother to move with me and pursue some new opportunities in the area. Anyway, he will have his discovery flight with me today. :-)
I hope I don’t scare the heck out of him.

Hey Tina, Mike mentioned to me how well you have been doing with your flying experience and I am very happy for you.

Dan, I am glad you mentioned that you started flying when you were about my age and you are right, we have the tendency to over analyze. For example, I even did some research about Daniel Bernoulli while trying to learn the basics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bernoulli

It’s amazing and sad what happened between Daniel and his dad who was also a brilliant mathematician.

Anyway, I kind of had the feeling that I was too old to get into this adventure but that's history now. Flying is a unique experience.

I saw Terry yesterday, the pilot who ran out of fuel and I didn’t want to interrogate him about the incident since he is probably tired of giving people the full story but he is in good spirit and physically well. He was busy writing some kind of report for NTSB with the help of one of the instructors. He'll be just fine.

Mike you were 100% right, we have a good team here.

Have a nice Memorial weekend everybody and I’ll catch with you all later!


Tom Tyson [SUW]
(Glider Guider)
05/23/09 09:16 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi Roger - Welcome to the 'drome!

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here are the instruments.

New students tend to focus on the altimeter as it seems to give absolute information. But forget "absolute" altitude numbers.

What you're seeking here is a "TLAR" approach and landing. TLAR stands for "That Looks About Right". You want to develop the picture of what looks right >OUTSIDE< of the cockpit. I'm sure your instructor has already broached the subject, but as you fly the final leg of the approach, look out through the windscreen and find the point on the ground that, relative to the windscreen seems to stay put, neither appearing to rise up the windscreen or fall. That's the point where (if you don't flare) you're going to touch down. The first few times, it might even help to have the instructor fly the approach and let you simply concentrate on the outside picture. Once you learn to judge your relative touchdown point, a lot of other things will simply fall into place.

Cross-check your airspeed, but don't worry about being 5' high or 12'low. That information is pretty meaningless in the total scope of things, and your developing sight picture will tell you a lot more about how the landing is going.

Once again, Welcome !

- TT


B. Butler (Oregonian)
(Top Gun)
05/23/09 01:08 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

look out through the windscreen and find the point on the ground that, relative to the windscreen seems to stay put, neither appearing to rise up the windscreen or fall. That's the point where (if you don't flare) you're going to touch down.




Yeah, but he doesn't have a yaw string to compare it with. <g>


Tina Gonsalves (7B6)
(Top Gun)
05/23/09 07:22 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi Roger,

Mike is the greatest. I came to avsig under false pretenses... and he was one of many who convinced me to take a discovery flight.

Like a drug dealer giving a dose to a potential customer, I was hooked.

Mike surprised me the day of my discovery flight and flew up to Connecticut and thank goodness he did because this initial flight instructor was such a fool I may not have continued without Mikes intervention and re-direction.

The rest, as they say, is history. After private pilot I went on to add the instrument rating and last summer... commercial.

Dear Miguel played a significant part of the process and for that I am forever grateful. Even IF he moved across the country.....

<g>

Very happy to have you on board here, it is wonderful and refreshing to watch and assist a student pilot. Heaven knows I gleaned more than my fair share of help from the 'sig.

Best Regards,

Tina


Tom Tyson [SUW]
(Glider Guider)
05/23/09 07:31 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

... but he doesn't have a yaw string to compare it with ...



... but I'm sure there are a few bug carcasses on the windscreen to act as fixed references.

- TT

One final thought, don't fix your gaze on any one thing, ESPECIALLY your potential touch down point - keep your head "on a swivel"


Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
(AVSIG Member)
05/23/09 07:48 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Tina,

<<Even IF he moved across the country.....>>

I still haven't decided if I'm going to forgive him for that.


Tina Gonsalves (7B6)
(Top Gun)
05/23/09 08:12 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

I've decided.

"No."

He seems quite happy there though. Go figure.

I suppose if I can't forgive I can accept.

He's in trouble if I ever get out that way though.....

<wink>

I came wicked close to flying to TN this weekend. (Thanks yrraL!) My other best friends moved there last Fall. yrraL & I cooked up the greatest scheme for me to fly down there and surprise them. BUT, as often is the way, it didn't work out. Probably for the best because their weather still stinks down there. (No offense.) Wx here in CT was picture perfect today. We went sailing out on the sound. Or we tried to. Little gusty breezy out there, more than my youngest cares to handle. More than my husband cared to handle, actually.

Anyways, next time I will make the trip. Two reasons. #1, I miss my friends. #2, I'm scared of the trip. So, being scared means I have to do it.

I've flown long trips before, but not 'solo.' Always had another pilot on board. I did the flying but having the security blanket of another pilot pilot beside me always took the edge off.

For this journey I purchased all the charts, VFR & low altitude enroute and started plotting the course. More I did it, the more I became nervous. Yes, I know, it's no different than plotting a course locally but, and this is a big but, it's a little more intimidating when you are outside your normal operating zone. No, I don't know why either. Shouldn't be.

Especially with a wonderful GPS on board.

Won't rely on that though. Old school says, plot the course, account for the winds and use the GPS as a tool. Silly but it makes me feel good.

I remember one flight where I was taking off from Cape May, NJ. IFR no less. I'd plugged the course into the 430 and also plotted the course using the "steam gauges." Climbing out, following my pink line, the line goes <poof> and disappears. No fooling. Not for long, mind you... but it did go away momentarily. I would have freaked if I hadn't had the Sea Isle VOR dialed into the second radio.

And freaking is a bad thing for me to do. Just ask my kids. I freaked when the eldest son came home at 12:47 a.m. after promising he'd be home at midnight.

Kids. Don't have 'em.

GPS's. Don't rely on 'em.

Soapbox away. Wine glass re-filled.

Best Regards,

Tina


Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
(AVSIG Member)
05/23/09 08:29 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Tina,

That was a wonderful message. I felt like you and I were sitting down and I was listening to you tell me a story.

What part of CT do you live in?


sreyoB yrraL
(AVSIG Member)
05/23/09 09:39 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

Probably for the best because their weather still stinks down there. (No offense.)




The weather was fine today. High ceilings and good visibility. Just a bit warm and muggy. 50% chance of rain tomorrow, though.

Quote:

I've flown long trips before, but not 'solo.' Always had another pilot on board. I did the flying but having the security blanket of another pilot pilot beside me always took the edge off.




I remember when I would have felt the same way leaving my "comfort zone". After a while, though, you'll realize that it's really not that different. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Same thing with a long flight over unfamiliar territory. You're a commercial pilot and know all of the tasks that you'll need to accomplish (the bites). Just do them each in turn and pretty soon you'll be here. You get scared because you're just looking at the elephant.

Quote:

Won't rely on that though. Old school says, plot the course, account for the winds and use the GPS as a tool. Silly but it makes me feel good.




Have your flight plan and charts prepared then use the GPS. If the GPS fails you just revert back to traditional methods.

I'd also recommend filing IFR for the trip, even if you don't want to go into any IMC. The experience in the system will be great and, if you become overloaded you can just cancel IFR and continue VFR. "Washington Center, Cessna 12345, Cancel IFR, Request flight following" Works good. Lasts a long time.


Tina Gonsalves (7B6)
(Top Gun)
05/24/09 05:26 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Thanks, Bob. That's what a glass of red wine gets you online. Rambling messages. <g>

I live in Ellington, CT... about 15 miles NE of Hartford and about 15 miles S of Springield, MA.

Best Regards,

Tina


Tina Gonsalves (7B6)
(Top Gun)
05/24/09 05:39 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

50% chance of rain tomorrow, though.




and the next day, and the next day and the next day.

when I do fly down I need two things. Actually, really just one. Time. <g> This trip was focused on an event. Couple big birthdays. One for a 65 year old, the other a 1 year old. I wanted to be there for a specific event, and then need to be back to work by Wednesday. Wx couldn't guarantee that for me this trip. When I do make the flight it will be a "Leave on no specific day and return when I can." Charts are good until July anyway. <g>

I know the trip is just smaller trips laced together and when I look at it that way I feel more relaxed. It was the laying out of all the charts on my bed that had me edgy. NY, Washington, St. Louis, Cincinnati and Atlanta sectionals. I could wall paper my living room with that amount of paper!

I also did purchase the enroute charts, as I planned to fly one leg of the trip IFR. I was thinking of the return trip being less likely to get routed all over creation as an 'inbound' through NY rather than an outbound. I don't know why I thought that though.

Flight following, yep, I used it often on a flight of any real distance or through a more congested airspace. For instance when I fly to Lawrence, MA to fetch my son from college I will use it since there is a lot of flying going on in that airspace. Between my eyes, TIS on the GPS, and flight following I feel safer buzzing around under the shelf of Boston's class B.

I guess what unnerves me most is that vast emptiness that seems to be West Virginia. There doesn't appear to be a lot of options should difficulty arise out there. Only 35 listed airports in that much larger than Connecticut state that has 23.

Maybe if I fly IFR I won't see how much there isn't down there? <g>

Best,

Tina

(Guess it doesn't take wine to get me talking. Barely even finished my coffee this morning....)


Ward Miller POU-NY
(Top Gun)
05/24/09 06:06 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Tina, when I read that, I smiled, thinking about your first time here on
AVSIG so many years ago. Since then PPL, Instrument, Commercial, and I
smiled again. Who would ever imagined? You've come a long way, Baby!


Ray Tackett
(Top Gun)
05/24/09 10:38 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Tina,

EKN is a good indicator in WV. If you hit bad weather, EKN is generally
involved. Pay attention to the observation there and remember that the
airport sits in a valley. There is often IMC, but with tops only 6-8000
through there. It usually clears up around CHS or LEX. The clouds seem to
"hang down" from Lake Erie as if it has something to do with lake effect. DO
NOT try to duck underneath such a layer in that area. Many rocks stick up
into it. If nothing else works, you can try ROA-BNA to get around.

If your route puts you anywhere near the DC Paranoia Zone, I earnestly
recommend IFR, regardless of WX. Saves trying to comply with bunch of weird
rules and maybe getting it wrong. MXE Vsomething ROBRT works, though you
will get turned a bit south, maybe via KROLL on your way to MRB. In the
general area of ROBRT, you will be crossing southbound arrival traffic into
IAD, which is another good reason to be IFR in the area.

BTW, coming from MXE, if you're 3-5 miles from ROBRT and haven't been
vectored yet, ASK. There isn't much legal room beyond that intersection.
HEF is a friendly fuel stop, but perhaps a bit out of your way.

Ray


Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
(AVSIG Member)
05/24/09 01:21 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Tina,

<<Thanks, Bob. That's what a glass of red wine gets you online. >>

If the shoe fits . . .

<<I live in Ellington, CT... about 15 miles NE of Hartford>>

I have a cousin in Manchester. He's probably a stone's throw from you.


Bruce Gorrell [EQY]
(Top Gun)
05/24/09 03:16 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

CRW (Charley West) maybe? It's a long way from EKN to CHS (Charleston South)

Ray Tackett
(Top Gun)
05/24/09 06:40 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Yeah. Thanks.

Tina Gonsalves (7B6)
(Top Gun)
05/24/09 07:36 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Thank you, Ward. I enjoy reading Roger's posts now because it's all so familiar to me. And who knew Mike Campos was responsible. Again. <g>

Best Regards,

Tina


Tina Gonsalves (7B6)
(Top Gun)
05/24/09 07:43 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi Ray,

The route I had originally planned did get close enough to DC to make me a little skittish. Reviewed the "Navigating the DC Special Flight Rules Area" course even. My straight line'ish VFR flight took me to KHGR then to K22, Big Sandy Airport somewhere in Kentucky. I expected I would need two pit stops.

I will take your advice and look at an IFR routing as well.

Certainly when I do make this flight I will be here making a big fuss over it. <lol>

But let's turn this thread back to Roger and his landing problems.

Best Regards,

Tina


Tina Gonsalves (7B6)
(Top Gun)
05/24/09 07:44 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Manchester IS very close. It's where the mall is. <g>

If you're ever in the 'hood, give me a shout. I'll buy lunch.

Best... Tina


Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
(AVSIG Member)
05/24/09 07:53 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Tina,

<<If you're ever in the 'hood, give me a shout. I'll buy lunch.>>

I am in the neighborhood about once a year or so. As far as your offer to buy lunch, I'll send the contract out in the morning.


Ray Tackett
(Top Gun)
05/24/09 09:06 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

If you file 6000, you should be able to get JFK V16 DIXIE, or maybe farther
south by Martin State. If you get DIXIE, the rest will be something like RBV
ARD MXE V<forgot the number> ROBRT ,,, If you get the LHY tour, and wx is
VMC, go VFR above NYC, and drop in to any of the Philly area airports to
refuel and file IFR.

I've also air-filed due to being stuck on top passing EKN and no breaks
reported the rest of the way to LEX, I39. I39 is where I'm going when I go
that way.

The other trip from MXE toward ROBRT for me is students' long IFR x-c to HEF.

BTW, direct Ellington to HGR will put you kinda close to the Camp David
prohibited area. Be sure you check NOTAMS for its size du jour; it varies.
There are also two small restricted areas not far north. My advice: transit
the area IFR and let ATC do all the worrying for you. Last time I was VFR
through there (pre 9/11), was when I found out about the IAD arrival stream.


Mike Campos [CA]
(Top Gun)
05/24/09 11:53 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi Tina,

I am glad I helped steer you into aviation, you've done nicely.

Quote:

Even IF he moved across the country.....




Yeah, yeah, something about a cross country trip as soon as I gain more experience .... you've got the commercial ticket, what are you waiting for, the space shuttle rating? <g>.

Roger is a good guy, we worked together in NJ, he's the best computer tech I have worked with and a very honest guy. I took him on a flight from Miami to Key west a few years back, tough crappy landing with a 90 degree stiff crosswind, barely made it down and Roger said "good landing" ignorance is bliss!

I am glad he took the plunge and is going full steam ahead.


Tina Gonsalves (7B6)
(Top Gun)
05/25/09 06:46 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Thanks Ray, I did see Camp David and would most certainly take that into account.

I know pilots who just hop into their airplanes and follow the little pink lines to their destinations. I guess that's how the "unlucky" ones get escorted down and injected into the news. (Tongue planted firmly in cheek.)

<ow>


Ray Tackett
(Top Gun)
05/26/09 05:31 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Real pilots don't yaw strings to judge an approach. A properly calibrated bug splat is all you need <g>.

Mike Stramba CNC3
(Public Guest)
05/29/09 11:43 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

One advantage I had was I was flying everyday.




That's a very important point IMO.

Roger, how often are you flying?

If less than twice a week, you might want to augment your training with a flight simulator.

http://www.flightgear.org/ is free, and very good, has a 172 that flies fairly realistically (for a sim) ;)

I also started flight training in "middle age" (44).

It took me "awhile" to learn to land. The first few attempts were ugly, and sometimes scary.

How much ground training re: landings did you get before flying?

In my case, I received almost none, other than "read the flight training manual", and that undoubtedly didn't help my initial progress ... or lack thereof.

After about my 4th or 5th lesson, I was referred to the chief instructor, and in one 15 minute ground session, and two flights around the pattern made all the difference in the world !

For the ground instruction, he showed me a neat trick :

Stand up beside a table top, then gradually sink / squat down while looking down at the table top and observe how it "flattens out" as you get lower. Same visual effect happens while descending in the plane.

He also had me put the nose of the plane in the same attitude during the flare, as it had during takeoff, and hold the nose on the end of the runway, adding back pressure as the speed / altitude decreased.

Here's an interesting take on landings :
http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/landing.html


"Stick and Rudder: An Explanation of the Art of Flying"
by Wolfgang Langewiesche is a classic "must read" too :)

Mike


Mike Campos [CA]
(Top Gun)
06/01/09 12:33 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi Mike,

Roger is cramming for the written text. I had not heard from him in a couple of days, so I emailed him to see how he is doing.

He's trying to fly 2-3 a week, but told me that during the last few days winds have been too strong for him to fly.

He should chime in soon and respond.


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
06/03/09 09:48 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi Mike Stramba for all the tips.

I am sorry for the delay in responding. I've been spending a lot of hours in Barnes and Noble reading the Gleim book for the Written Test and flying.

Thanks to the tips and tricks I got here my landings have improved tremendously (8 out of 10 are decent), I started to flare much better at the right altitude from the rwy, and smooth (of course when there is not crosswind or gusts). However, when there is a little wind and I am approaching the rwy I still messy trying to get the nose straight applying the different techniques that look easy on paper such as crabbing or controlled landing. Sometimes I am too hard on the rudders and some others I don't press enough the proper rudder....no pain, no gain!

I've been flying 2 and 3 times a week. My instructor has pointed out that the more stable my approach is the better landing I will have. His favorite phrase: "Stability is your Fried". We have 1 concrete/pavement rwy and 2 grass strips with some obstacles close.

My pattern is not 100% accurate neither since sometimes I descend to fast or too slow. I think is a matter of practicing so I am planning to keep on practicing until I get it right.

I will try your suggestions with the table and the simulator. There are some other guys at the airport sharing the same issues I have and we are helping each other as well.

Besides flying, what I like about this environment is that I meet good people with frequency at the airport always willing to share what they know and give you advise. It reminds me about scuba diving where I made some good friends as well.

Hey Ray, I hope one day I understand what is it that you are talking about.....it looks like a different language to me when you exchange thoughts with Tina! :-)

Thanks Mike Campos for your email. I am doing ok and I am also going to Florida on family matters in June 19th.


Dave Millikan
(AVSIG Member)
06/03/09 10:34 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,
Take heart.Most airplanes are the same.
You take it ,down low, hold it off and be patienct
Put a wing down if there is a cross wind.
Works every time after 64 years.
J3, C 140 , C 170, UPF-7 Waco,B A35, T-6, T-28, B-25, KB-29P and ,my SA-300.Not a big problem, but which window to look out in the B-29 was something new.
Dave


Cole Loftus [C89]
(Top Gun)
06/04/09 12:28 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Sounds like you're getting the hang of it. It's tough while you have to
think about it, then one day it just clicks, and you're doing it without
thinking about it. Then you're no longer behind the airplane.


Ray Tackett
(Top Gun)
06/04/09 05:50 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

Different language? Das kann ich auch tun. <g> That was IFR stuff, which
you won't see until after you get the private.

Glad to hear about your landings. Here's an exercise I use for crosswind
landings. It challenges your instructor, too.

Have your instructor get into the cross-controlled flare and add just a touch
of power so the plane doesn't quite land. Cruise down the runway at one foot
AGL, holding the nose straight and keeping it over the center line. Near the
far end of the runway, go around.

Then you do it with the instructor on the throttle so you can concentrate on
the rest of the job.

"Graduation" demonstration is you have the throttle, too, AND (on a long
runway) you move left, center, and right on your instructor's calls, keeping
the nose straight and maintaining flare height the whole time.

Repeat in the strongest crosswind with which the instructor is comfortable.

Ray


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
06/04/09 10:21 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Thanks Ray but what is the difference between doing this exercise and the touch and go? No comprende! :-)

Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
06/04/09 10:24 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hey Dave,

If I can land 2 or 3 a/c out of your list when I get your age about 15 from now I'll be as happy as I can be.
Thanks for the tip about lowering the alieron. I've been trying that but I am not doing it right yet.


Robert Mann [HPN-NY]
(AVSIG Member)
06/05/09 12:38 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

<< I've been trying that but I am not doing it right yet. >>

It's like learning to ride a bike. It's hard, it's hard it's hard, and then it's easy.

Hang in there, you'll get it.


Ray Tackett
(Top Gun)
06/05/09 05:42 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

Flying down the runway in the flare gives you more time to look at the sight
picture and more time for precise, cross-controlled flight.

A normal crosswind landing can be just a "dump it on the ground" event which
is over very quickly. It is possible to get away with poor technique and
perhaps not even realize it.

If you fly at 40-50 knots (the usual 172 touchdown speed) down, say, a 6000
foot runway, you must hold the airplane on the center line pointed straight
ahead with crossed controls for about a minute.

In short, you get far more landing practice for each lap around the pattern.
Post-touchdown in a tricycle gear (nosewheel) airplane is generally a
non-event. Good landings start with a good approach and finish with fine
control in the flare. Better to practice fine control in the flare for a
minute or so each time around than for the usual second or two.

Bottom line: It's educational "bang for the buck" where the bucks flow
quickly.

Ray

P.S. I'm big on showing beginners the sight picture of a maneuver done
right. Then the student's objective is to "replay the video", i.e. make it
look the same themselves. The sight picture close to the runway is important
to learn.


John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]
(Top Gun)
06/29/09 05:26 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Howdy Roger,

How is the training going?

Are the landings working out better for you?

John


Mike Campos [CA]
(Top Gun)
07/09/09 06:18 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi John,

He sent me an e-mail this morning letting me know he soloed last Saturday and went up alone again on Sunday. He's preparing for his first cross country with his instructor.

He had disappeared, I thought he had given up, but he had been busy with work and a trip to FL.


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
07/09/09 06:54 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi guys,

Sorry for disappearing like that... I had so many things going on…My brother who lived in Florida before (40 years old) moved with me temporarily while he is on training with me for a career change. I am trying to make a Network Admin like Mike Campos and I out of him. He was struggling with the job market in Florida and I though that the situation here in the Baltimore-DC corridor was a little better. Well, it is but it’s not that good as I though it was…. Anyway, after many job interviews on the computer field he finally got a job with Bank of America as a teller-seller representative starting next Monday (nothing to do with the computer field). The job doesn’t pay that well but hey!, it’s a job and in this economy is a God’s blessing having a job.

Ok, back to business now…lol. Like Mike said I soloed last Saturday and I didn’t want express it externally but I was really nervous inside after the instructor got off the airplane. The first lap went ok but the second one was a disaster…..I forgot to push in the carb heater after landing as well as raising the flaps up and putting 10 degrees back. I took-off on the soft field where I was supposed to have 10 degrees flaps with 40 degrees flaps. Fortunately, I remembered to keep the nose down and to take the flaps off 10 degrees at a time ( I realized of my mistake when I was airborne 400-500 ft above the ground). Third and fourth laps were kind of ok but the landings were not quite right. I am landing in the center of the runway by making smooth adjustments with rudder and aileron the way you guys recommended, my flare is very good but I land with too much airspeed and I take to much of the runway.

Yesterday, I went for another round again and the instructor said: “well Roch, get on the airplane and let’s do 2 laps together, if you don’t kill me or hurt yourself I’ll let you do the thing on your own” and he did. I did 5 TOLs and except the problem taking too much of the runway 3 times out of 5 everything was really nice. The only thing is that we didn’t have a lot of wind these past days so I know I have a lot of ground to cover still.

Now I am struggling making a flight plan for a cross-country with my instructor. We are flying 0W3-KLNS-RDG next Saturday (Harford, MD – Lancaster, PA – Reading, PA).


Anne Umphrey (KBED)
(Top Gun)
07/09/09 09:40 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Congratulations on the solo! Your instructor wouldn't have signed you off if he/she didnt' think you could handle it.

Now you can move on forward with those cross-countries, a whole new set of interesting circumstances.
Anne


sreyoB yrraL
(AVSIG Member)
07/10/09 12:00 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Congratulations, Roger!

So, how many landings did you have logged at the point that your instructor cut you lose? (Want to see how close my rule-of-thumb was)


John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]
(Top Gun)
07/10/09 02:58 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Congratulations, Roger.

For your training and solo, did you do full stop landings with a taxi back to take off, or did you primarily do touch and goes?

What were the winds (cross winds) like during your solo?

John


Jim Gifford
(Top Gun)
07/11/09 10:16 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Well done, Roger! Congratulations on flying an airplane around the circuit and back to the runway, by yourself, safely, multiple times. Solo flight is a big accomplishment. You have learned a lot.

Now keep learning...


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
07/17/09 01:41 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi All,

Thanks for the complements but I wouldn't have done it without your help and my instructor's help.

Anne, I think you are right, I believe that the fun starts now that I'll be able to go to many different places around the area. I have to get a lot better with the VOR instrumentation. I flew with my instructor on a cross-country and everything was weird. I missed some of the landmarks and checkpoints and I had to use my instructor's help to be able to write down the time and fuel usage on the few checkpoints I didn't miss. I’ll tell you what….I was overwhelmed trying to fly the Skyhawk while looking at the flight plan at the same time and doing the writing......

So far I have about 168 TOLs in the logbook. My first solo landings were on the grass strip but on Monday I came back and flew few patterns with my instructor for TOLs on the hard surface rwy and then he got out and let me do it on my own about 4 or 5 times. Again, it was after work close to sunset and there wasn't any wind.

I want to train in crosswinds ASAP to see if I improved anything with the rudder and the aileron maneuvers on final. Last time I tried to practice with my instructor on some crosswinds I was all over the rwy. ;-)

I also started looking at some aircrafts and I wonder if you have any suggestion for buying. I ran into terms such as TBO (time between overhaul), SMOH (Since Main Overhaul), TTAF (something to do with time on the airframe)...

I am not in the position of paying cash for a plane so I am planning to get financing for at least 20 years putting something down.

Here is what I am looking for:

I need something that give me a good mileage ( I am sorry for the car terminlogy but I don't know better);-)
Probably I'll be flying from time to time (when mother nature allows) from Maryland to Florida or whay not? to meet you guys in person to have lunch or something one day! ;-)

For sure I want to visit my buddy Mike Campos who is a sell-out b/c he gave up the east-coast for the beautiful California. ha,ha, ha!:-)

I was looking at some Cessnas and Cirrus. The Cirrus I looked at had a stick. I wonder if you guys can give me a ball park figure on how much time I would need to learn to handle the stick. It looks easy but hey, before I started learning I though that flying a plane was a matter of hours ... ;-)

My next milestone is IFR so maybe I should wait until I get the IFR rating to purchase something.

Oh, I forgot……Last Saturday, I convinced my instructor to endorse me for the FAA written test. He was against it because he asked me some questions about the weather METAR, winds aloft, codes, etc and I didn’t answer right….Anyway, I kept on reviewing the weather material and convinced the guy to sign me on. I know I studied a lot but I didn’t expect to get 97 on the test. I was kind of lucky I guess! ;-) I am going to start playing the lottery more often from now on. ;-)

Tomorrow is a big day for me again:
I asked my CFI to get me better with the VOR navigation so I am reviewing Section B chapter on the Jeppesen Flight Discovery Private Pilot Book right now.

ok guys...I'll check back with you soon.
Have a nice Flying and the most important, Be Safe! :-)


Larry James (KVKX)
(Public Guest)
07/17/09 06:09 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hello Roger,

I've just come across this thread after a long absence (too long) from Avsig. As expected, the advice has been excellent and I'm glad to see you have been progressing nicely.

You mentioned that you are now contemplating aircraft ownership. That's great.

I think I may be able to help with regard to your question about how long the transition will take to learn the side stick in a Cirrus. I have been instructing in the Cirrus exclusively for the past three years and have yet to find anyone having any trouble with the side stick. That includes pilots who have only flown the Cirrus. (Yes there are those fortunate souls who buy their own airplane and THEN learn to fly it.)

I don't expect the side stick to be an issue for you. Stepping up to a more powerful aircraft with very different avionics will take time if you decide to go the route of Technically Advanced Aircraft like the Cirrus. But it is all fun whether your airplane is a J-3 or something more exotic.

Regards


Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
(Top Gun)
07/17/09 07:33 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger - On aircraft ownership, a first thought is don't expect to find a 20
year term on financing. Most is considerably shorter. A home equity loan
may be helpful, allowing the deduction of at least part of the interest cost
on the loan.

MD-FL is a fun trip but, by the same token, when VFR, you need a several day
window to complete the trip due to the vagaries of weather. Some seasons
that is less of a problem than others. But, especially for a new pilot,
building in the extra time while you build experience is necessary. Those
trips are the way to get that experience very nicely, however. I started
doing NY-NC in a 172 for the holidays shortly after I got my certificate, and
would rent a 172 to fly to different NE destinations on day trips ...
Buffalo, Hagarstown, etc.

If you want to look at used aircraft to purchase, get hold of the Aviation
Consumer used aircraft guide. I think it's now on CD, either in addition or
in lieu of paper. Hours of comparison shopping possible with that. Also,
some recent issues of Aviation Consumer magazine had information about buying
Cirri used, what to look for in the way of the avionics and sweet price
points for value. This a wealth of information in back issues of that
magazine, which you can access on line as a subscriber.
www.aviationconsumer.com .


Anne Umphrey (KBED)
(Top Gun)
07/17/09 07:44 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

Thanks for the posting. Everyone here is cheering you on.

When you post your learning experiences it brings each and everyone of us on this old virtual Aerodrome memories of our days of learning to fly. So - thanks for the memories. :-)

It sounds as though you are making good progress in your own time frame and that is important. Don't rush things, you have years of good flying fun and adventures ahead of you. Having said that of course, I was eager to move on and "do it all".

Congrats on passing the written, and with flying colors (pun intended).

Anne


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
07/17/09 08:33 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Welcome back to AvSign Larry and thank you for the input on the Cirrus and about the stick issue.

I appreciate the advice about the cross-country trips Scott and about the website. I'll check it out.

The reason I mentioned the 20 years financing is because I ran into this website where they offer the 20 years financing with 10% down but this may be an old ad. I will call them and find out:

http://www.usaircraftfinance.com/

Anne, you are very welcome about bringing back old memories.
Hey, did you ever make this mistake?: On Monday, before the instructor got out of the plane he told me that if I am to high or have problems with the approach I should just "go-around”. I wanted practice that on my own and on one of the approaches I gave it full power, started climbing easy and 10 degrees at a time got rid of the flaps. I noticed that the climbing was slow and it was like somebody was holding the Cessna from behind. It was only on downwind that I realized I had left the carb heater on..... lol


Thanks everyone!
Have a pleasant Day!


Ray Tackett
(Top Gun)
07/17/09 06:15 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

What Larry said about stepping up to a higher performance airplane and ...

You need to keep your mind farther ahead of a faster airplane, especially on
pattern entry and approach. Everything you're used to happens quicker.

Re forgetting carb heat in a Cessna on go-around, develop the habit of
pushing in the throttle with your thumb extended to catch the heat knob every
time.

Ray


Mike Stramba CNC3
(Public Guest)
07/17/09 06:48 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

I’ll tell you what….I was overwhelmed trying to fly the Skyhawk while looking at the flight plan at the same time and doing the writing......






Roger,

I found it very helpful to "fly" my cross countries in a flight simulator, as a rehearsal. This was back in 2002, and even then MSFS was good enough with it's ground details / roads / lakes, etc, that it was like deja-vu when I flew the actual x-ctry !

Simulators are great for VOR practice and general instrument practice as well.

Here's an online VOR sim : http://www.dauntless-soft.com/PRODUCTS/Freebies/navsim/

Mike


Ray Tackett
(Top Gun)
07/17/09 08:39 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

As an instructor, I'd introduce the new tasks by being an "organic autopilot"
on the outbound leg of a student's first x-c. I would hold whatever settings
the student said (IAS or power, altitude, and heading) as precisely as
possible, freeing the student for the new stuff and to test his/her planning
accurately.

Best fun was the time winds aloft were WAY off forecast. The student didn't
spot the drift early on, then misidentified RDG as LNS. He got suspicious
when he didn't see Three Mile Island or the Susqehanna River over the nose
shortly thereafter. The actual scenery was nothing but woods, hills, and
little creeks. He learned a lot, including VOR triangulation and hasty TLAR
plan revision that day.


Andy Dulay [PGD]
(Hangar Rat)
07/18/09 09:06 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

It was only on downwind that I realized I had left the carb heater on....



Roger. How could have been so stupid??? Leaving the carb heat on during a go-around??? What were you thinking.

I can assure you that NONE of us here on the AVSIG have ever done anything like that, ever.

Uh, well, maybe once, or twice. Or maybe while doing a go-around during a check ride in the 727 (way back when), losing an engine right during the "gear up" call, switching to something else and then trying to figure out why the airplane was about to crash when the second engine quit.

Well, duh, you left the landing gear down during the entire procedure!!

See? It happens in any "trainer" for sure.

Bet it doesn't happen again though!

Congrats on the solo and all the fun flying you're getting now.

AD


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
07/27/09 12:15 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi friends,

Reporting back....
The simulator helped me a lot and I spent bunch of time looking into Google maps zooming in /out for the next trips I flew with my instructor...well, at least I wasn't as lost as I was when we arrived to RDG. Ray, I think you mentioned you took your student over there too. My problem is that I confused one of my checkpoints and I wasn’t navigating properly with the VOR.

Andy, you right on the money...if you don't get killed by your mistake you will learn the lesson and remember FOREVER.

I spent a lot of time this weekend at controlled airports (LNS, MTN, ILG)...scary stuff. I have a strong cuban accent so 80% of the time the controllers don't copy me the first time and I have to repeat myself. Some other times I found out that I am missing the "lingo" such as do a 180, 360, transitioning to such and such.... these terms were new to me.

To make things even more complicated we picked...or I picked Wilmington (ILG) to stay in the pattern and practice communication with ATC. There was a lot of activity and also "NEW ATC PERSONNEL". At some point they had directed us to land on rwy 1 and when my instructor reported midfield on 1 the cleared us for "19".
My instructor picked that very quickly and made them aware that we were flying 1 mile passed the numbers downwind on 1. Then they cleared us for the proper rwy.

The 2nd incident was with Ground after grabbing a cup of coffee. I called in, mentioned that I was a student pilot as I always do, said that we were at "Airways" and wanted to depart flying west, we had info "Mike" at the time I think, and requested progressive taxing (just to get the experience because my CFI has been there 2 million times). Ground directed us to turn right on Foxtrot and I couldn't see the "F" anywhere...My instructor took it from there and we found out that the person was all confused. I went like....man....I will never get this!...

To me the worse part is when 2 or 3 aircrafts approach to the same rwy I am planning to use at the same time... I get nervous because I don't know where they are or where they are coming from I guess because I am nervous and I am not paying attention to what they are saying... Anyway, my mind says: beep! beep! Possible Collision! beep, beep! Possible Collision! ....you get the point. It's a little frustrating because I want to know how to handle at least Class Delta airports. I wonder what your thoughts on that are since I know you have plenty of good suggestions! :-)


The other things we did this weekend were:
- Hood work for .6 and that is intensive work but I think it helped me out to get better with the rudders
- The CFI explained how to do “intercepts” using the 2nd VOR. I had trouble understanding why the needle was pointing to the left and we were going to the right. Finally, I understood that everything has to do with where you are and where are you going.

I ended the day doing some TOL's on soft field solo so I keep everything fresh in my mind. This time I did not forget about the carb heat! lol

Hope everybody had a nice weekend.
I'll catch with you all later! :-)


Mike Stramba CNC3
(Public Guest)
07/27/09 01:38 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

You can practice (listening anyway) to ATC here :

http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php?type=all-us

Or if you're a real aviation nerd like me, you could buy a scanner to listen to ATC ... or better yet, since you expressed that you might eventually buy a plane, buy a handheld transceiver to listen in on when you're not flying ..... Just don't transmit (when you're not in a real airplane) <g>.

Re: simulator ... google earth actually has a built in "flight simulator", that while lacking in instrumentation, makes up for it with the scenery :)

Mike


Anne Umphrey (KBED)
(Top Gun)
07/27/09 08:19 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

Here in New England there is a helicopter flight school that trains a lot of foreign students. It is near a Class C airport (Bradley, near Hartford, CT). One thing that the instructors did was to make a tape of radio transmissions and replies at Bradley. The students then listened to the tapes. Not only did it get them familiar with the language they were hearing, but they could practice repeating back instructions etc. They could listen and repeat over and over again until they really understood it. Many were Japanese and not only did they have little to no English so understanding what was being said to them, but their accents made it difficult for the controllers to understand the students as well.

Even though I am a native English speaker I remember trying to learn the specialized language of aviation radio-speak. It was not easy to do that while I was also trying to fly the helicopter and navigate at the same time. I remember that it took a while to get the mental picture of where the other aircraft were and to know what they were doing from listening to the radio calls. Training your brain to multitask takes time. However, like learning to land it does finally "click in" and you can do the multi-tasking with out getting completely overwhelmed. So, one thing you might want to do is to go to an airport with a hand-held radio and just listen in for a while.

Because I began learning to fly later in life it took a bit longer for the old brain synapses to function. But your brain will adapt. The upside of all this is that I find myself being able to multi-task in many other facets of my life now. <G>

Have fun doing this learning to fly thing!
Anne


Ray Tackett
(Top Gun)
07/27/09 10:32 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi Roger,

As Anne pointed out ATC is a language all its own, with a small, specialized vocabulary and a very limited syntax. Everybody learns it as a foreign language, even though it's based upon English.

ILG is kind to student pilots. If you run into a controller in training, so much the better. You train each other. Just keep your eyes and ears open and don't let the controller fly your plane. "Unable" is a valid response to most anything if you need to say it, but it's nice if you can offer an alternative. Here's a real-world example:

ATC: Cessna 034, turn your base now, runway 33, clear to land.

Me: Unable to turn base. Traffic on final for 33. Extending downwind.

(There was a plane landing 33 at PNE, but not talking to anyone. The controller hadn't seen it. If I had turned base, i.e., let the controller fly my plane, I might not have been here to write this.)

You might ask your instructor about your accent. If it's strong enough to be a real problem, there are language schools and teachers which offer accent reduction courses. If your accent just says "I'm not from around here" but doesn't really get in the way, then it's the controller's problem. Just make a point of speaking clearly on the radio.

Ray


Mike Campos [CA]
(Top Gun)
07/28/09 12:15 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hey Roger, you've done great.

My advise is not to rush into buying an airplane, I would get some hours under your belt and go for the IFR, by the time you have some time you get your IFR you'll have enough time to figure out what plane you want. The Cirrus are really nice.

I wouldn't worry too much about your Cuban accent, but do work on trying to clean it up a bit while you are flying, it helps when the controller actually understands you are flying a 172 not a 271 <g>.

As for California's great weather, sure it is, but one little tidbit, as you fly out this way, the closer you get, the smaller your wallet will feel, the cost of living here is about 16% more than out your way and increasing.

Keep in touch.


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
07/29/09 03:38 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems



Hey guys,

Thanks a lot for the feedback. I checked the link for the CT simulator and it is great. I will keep of listening different feeds as I think it will help.
Anne, I wonder if Bradley still making the tapes and whether they sell them or not. You got a good point about the communications at the control airports being like a different language to me.
Ray, the case scenario you stated hit the nail on the head and is what I am lacking of. I think that it will become easier with time but right now I am not acting quickly enough when we have situations like the one you described. My instructor has been the one getting me out of trouble. &#61514;
Mike Campos: Thanks for the advice and I agree, I don’t need to be making any premature decision so I will wait until I finish the IFR training.
Do you guys know of any good boot camp for IFR?

Have a Good Day All!


Anne Umphrey (KBED)
(Top Gun)
07/29/09 04:01 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

It wasn't Bradley that made the tapes. It was the Japanese Instructor who made them from a radio receiver.

I don't know, but maybe Sporty's Pilot shop or someplace else may make tapes to sell.

Anne


Mase Taylor
(Top Gun)
07/29/09 04:13 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

THIS PAGE IN SPORTY'S CATALOG lists a variety of communications courses, some on DVD and/or CD. I don't have any experience with any of them so I can't make a recommendation. In my own case, I had spent a lot of time at work with the scanner on so I was very familiar with the terminology; all it took was getting over my initial mike fright.

Mike Stramba CNC3
(Public Guest)
07/29/09 07:12 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:



Hey guys,

Thanks a lot for the feedback. I checked the link for the CT simulator and it is great. I will keep of listening different feeds as I think it will help.

Anne, I wonder if Bradley still making the tapes and whether they sell them or not. You got a good point about the communications at the control airports being like a different language to me.

Do you guys know of any good boot camp for IFR?

Have a Good Day All!




Roger,

Do you mean the link for liveAtc ? I think it's a great training tool.

If so, google for a program called Audacity, it's a free program that will record off your sound card if you want to record ATC. The liveatc site also has archived recordings.

re: "boot camp" : I dont' have my IFR, but I've practiced on the sim. re: , practicing on a simulator will get you up to speed for the instrumentation (VOR, ILS, GPS ... what's that other thing ? ... oh yeah ADF <g>).

I found that practicing on the sim was great for when I got my night rating, and did a night x-ctry, as well as general day VFR. Using nav instruments is a great backup / addition to just map reading and pilotage. (I'm in Canada btw if you didn't notice my location).

I fly out of (C)NC3. CYYZ, CYKZ, and CYKF (to a lesser degree) airspace are all nearby, .. CYYZ especially. Learning to fly VOR radials has been very helpful for navigating around airspace, in addition to map reading / knowing the landmarks associated with the different airspace altitude zones here.

Mike


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
07/30/09 08:23 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Thanks Anne / Mase,
Gosh, that's a good link to Sporty's. They have plenty of material there. Very cool!

Mike, how long did it take you to complete the night rating?

The only reason I am asking about IFR is because my instructor and even Mike Campos recommended to do that next.
I've been working hard understanding and using the VORs. I had trouble locating an airport that did not have a VOR on-site using the closest airport VOR TO-FROM but I think that finally I got it. My CFI showed me how to use one instrument for directional purposes to get the appropriate radio and the other one to find out where I am and do an intercept. However, he said "there is too many ways to skin a cat..." with the VORs.

The other thing that my instructor mentioned is that the ADF is going away. Any thoughts on that?

You guys probably know but another nice tool I found very useful is the Electronic Flight Directory that AOPA on their website. It's a free download for IPOD and maybe other handheld devices. It's really nice to locate airports and frequencies. The only thing is that I am not sure if it works about 1000 ft AGL. :-)

Thank you All!
Have a pleasant day!


sreyoB yrraL
(AVSIG Member)
07/30/09 12:33 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Here are a couple of web sites where you can practice your VOR navigation.

http://www.visi.com/~mim/nav/

http://www.luizmonteiro.com/


Mike Campos [CA]
(Top Gun)
07/30/09 02:01 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi Roger,

Night rating? Do you mean the night requirements for the PPL? I forget, I know I did one night flight down the Hudson River corridor and one cross country to Bridgeport from CDW. That night I was up in the air when TWA 800 crashed.

I can look up at home to see how much time I put in night flying, if I remember correctly the requirements are outlined in the FARs.
As for accelerated IFR training, American Flyers has a 10 day program, given your knack for studying, I think you may do well with it.

American Flyers


I don't know how much real IFR training they do, but there is a world of difference between going up in good weather under the hood and bouncing around in the clouds in real IFR. Unsolicited plug comming <g>. Besides soloing and getting your PPL, there is nothing like flying IFR at night and for the first time break out of the clouds with a perfectly lit airport in front of you, it a heck of an experience. Also flying straight into a wall of clouds is a weird feeling, it is like you are going to hit a wall.

If you get your IFR rating without doing much real IFR flying, I would make it a point to go up with an instructor in real IFR to get some practice.


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
08/09/09 10:46 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi All,

I am checking with you few minutes before leaving home to go to the airfield. We tried to do a night x-country yesterday but the there was a cell in the area and we canceled the trip.
Today we are doing a dual-x- country to MIV if weather allows.

Thanks again for all the tips and websites for practicing. My instructor took me to Lancaster this week and I solo there. I did 3 TOL’s but to be honest….. ATC were unbelievable wonderful after my instructor said…”be advised this is a new student soloing, please keep the eye on him”. He got off the plain and I got kind of nervous but Ground gave me super duper progressive instructions to the active rwy and the rest was a piece of cake that day.

Mike Campos, it’s kind of sad what happened at the Hudson river but I know you have flown there a lot. What is your input about the accident between the helicopter and the private plain? How could that would’ve been prevented in your opinion? Any thoughts? There was a second helicopter that tried to radio the one crashing but got no response. Few seconds later he saw the disaster.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090809/ap_o...mVyc3JlbW92ZQ--

Have a safe fly evebody and enjoy your day!


Ralph Jones
(Top Gun)
08/09/09 12:20 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

My instructor took me to Lancaster this week and I solo there.




Bloody good show, Roger!


Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
(Top Gun)
08/09/09 12:46 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger - Congratulations on your solo!!

As to the accident, it's see and avoid, head on a swivel, can't rely on other
people's radio transmission. PIC responsibility, and sometimes the deck is
stacked against you (e.g., traffic climbing up from below). The climbing
traffic is the scenario I worry about most in the corridor...guys at my
altitude I can see pretty well.


Mike Campos [CA]
(Top Gun)
08/10/09 05:25 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi Roger,

What Scott said, it is a busy area and things get hectic some times.

Amazingly enough I don't think there have been many accidents of this type in recent history, does anyone know if there have been any previous accidents over the Hudson? I know there was one with a Learjet and a Cessna around the early 80s, but I think that was right out of Teterboro.


Scott Dyer [HPN/NY]
(Top Gun)
08/10/09 06:41 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Mike -- That was right in the TEB Class B (or, actually, ATA, at the time).
I was a witness to that one.

Lots of helicopters and fixed wing aircraft have crashed/ditched into the
river, but I don't recall any collisions in the last 20 years. Could be
wrong.


Mike Campos [CA]
(Top Gun)
08/11/09 10:38 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Thanks Scott,

I was living in Fairview, NJ at the time the mid air happened around TEB, the small plane ended up a couple of blocks from where I lived, not a pleasant sight.


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
08/11/09 09:08 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi All,

Thanks for the input about the Hudson River. I guess that the area around the Statue of Liberty is not a flying zone for a newbie like me. I associate that to Washington, DC which is called the “No Flight Zone” around here and we had to take a training online because the proximity of our airfield to DC.

On another note, weather is not cooperating around here. I made about two flight plans for cross-country and had to put them on hold for now. In the meantime, I have been doing some ground school with my instructor.
Haven’t had the chance to practice with the VOR links but I have been listening to the KBOS using the link that Mike Stramba sent me and it has been a great help to me. Thanks Mike!
My landings have been improving and I know it is not a big deal for you guys but my instructor endorsed me for 7 kts winds. I had an endorsement for 5 kts before.

Good night All!


Kcid LlirreM
(Top Gun)
08/13/09 09:37 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

for instrument training you might think about Bob Miller, a former avsigger. He will get you in the clouds.

http://bobmillerflighttraining.com/

good luck.

Dick


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
08/13/09 08:53 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Thanks a lot Dick.
I checked it out. The Intruments rating is about 10k which is not bad for 10 days of accelerated training.


Anne Umphrey (KBED)
(Top Gun)
08/16/09 09:30 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger,

Hang in there. I began my cross-country solos in a January. It took me more than a month to get the first one in, from BED to ORH (Worcester, MA) a distance of maybe 30 NM. I planned it over and over again because it was either low overcast and snowing or severe clear but blowing like crazy. By the time I did it, I knew the parameters, checkpoints and all by memory.

The day I was supposed to do my Private Pilot checkride it was completely cloudless, but being August it was very hot and hazy with vis. about 4 miles in haze. I'd never done a cross-country in less than 8 miles vis. so I had to push it back a few days.

Ah, the delights of flying. "Time to spare, go by air". <G>

Anne


Roger Ferrer
(Public Guest)
08/22/09 09:56 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Hi Anne,

Thank you for sharing your experience. Yesterday the weather wasn’t that great but I finished almost all the requirement with my instructor. The only one he said we need to practice is Emergency landings. We couldn’t do it because the ceiling was too low and my instructor wanted to climb to at least 5000 ft for this one for some reason.

My cross country solo will be from 0W3 to OXB (Ocean City) and if the weather allows I will stop at GED (Georgetown) since I was told they have a good restaurant and facilities. Now, like you said I am depending on the weather conditions. It’s going to be fun.

Thanks,

Roger


Trig Johnston
(AVSIG Member)
08/12/17 04:19 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

One other real effective way to get this down is to get r e l a x e d and enjoy what you are doing. All the advice on AVSIG is good. It WILL come to you. Use your elevator trim but remember that in a go-around you'll have to trim the nose down smartly.

And read Fate is the Hunter.


Terry Carraway
(Top Gun)
08/13/17 04:15 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

I would figure he had it figured out my now.

It has been 8 years since the previous last post in this thread.

:D


Randy Sohn
(Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres)
08/13/17 07:11 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

been 8 years since the previous last post in this thread. :D




Chuckle, I always said that Trig was kinda slow - but this takes the cake! <g>

best, randy


Scott Dunham (RDU)
(Top Gun)
08/14/17 08:02 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Roger must have figured it out - according to the FAA airman database, one Roger Ferrer was issued an ATP in April 2016. :-)

Terry Carraway
(Top Gun)
08/15/17 08:21 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

Roger must have figured it out - according to the FAA airman database, one Roger Ferrer was issued an ATP in April 2016. :-)




A BIG assumption. :D


nehoC hctiM
(Top Gun)
08/15/17 11:03 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Agreed!!!

I've found a small percentage of ATP's that still could use a tail dragged checkout.


Scott Dunham (RDU)
(Top Gun)
08/15/17 04:31 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

And then there are a few that mange to drag the tail anyway...

Randy Sohn
(Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres)
08/26/17 05:58 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

found a small percentage




Small? (chuckle)

best, randy


Trig Johnston
(AVSIG Member)
09/25/17 08:44 AM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Uh, what was the question?

Randy Sohn
(Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres)
09/25/17 12:52 PM
Re: Student Pilot - Landing Problems

Quote:

Uh, what was the question?




Roger Ferrer's "wonder if I can get some tips and tricks executing the flare to make my landing more smooth" on 20/05/09 at 07:04 PM.

best, randy



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