Mase Taylor
(Top Gun)
10/21/10 07:28 PM
PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented...

Piper Aircraft has announced some modifications to the Piperjet that will make it more attractive to the Business market, as opposed to the owner-flown market (they hope). For one thing, it will be easier to change to two rear-mounted engines on any follow-on models.....

STORY


Joe Budge (W29)
(Top Gun)
10/27/10 11:59 PM
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented...

Quote:

Piper heavily revamps PiperJet
Goal is to attract business customers





Guess they weren't getting the other kind of customers...

Regards,
Joe


Dave Siciliano (ADS)
(Top Gun)
10/28/10 11:40 AM
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented...

For some reason, I'm just having a bit of trouble with the single engine jet <g>.

If one is to go high, far and fast, they'd traverse a lot of adverse terrain, take off and land in more congested areas and deal with more weather. I would think redundancy would be more important. The commercial folks sure seem to lean toward it.

Another reason the $1MM VLJ will be difficult to deliver (in case that issue isn't settled in everyone's mind.) Even $2MM seems open to question.

Best,

Dave


Sean Franklin
(Top Gun)
10/29/10 05:15 PM
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented...

Quote:

For some reason, I'm just having a bit of trouble with the single engine jet <g>



Obviously 2 engines are better than one in terms of redundancy, but looking just at engine reliability a single turbine gives you MUCH lower chance of failure than a single engine failure in your Baron.

There is a lot to like about a single-engine turbine (jet or prop). Greatly improved reliability over piston twins, good power and speed, but reasonable (almost piston-like) fuel burns. A twin jet is going to be expensive to run, even a Mustang.

The Meridian, TBM, PC-12, Caravan crowd have been enjoying good reliability and economy for a long time. The Vision and PiperJet I think have a chance to be good contenders.


Mick Ruthven
(AVSIG Member)
10/30/10 09:58 AM
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented...

But with a way different result in the event of a failure.

Quote:

looking just at engine reliability a single turbine gives you MUCH lower chance of failure than a single engine failure in your Baron.




Sean Franklin
(Top Gun)
10/30/10 11:08 AM
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented...

Quote:

But with a way different result in the event of a failure.

Quote:

looking just at engine reliability a single turbine gives you MUCH lower chance of failure than a single engine failure in your Baron.






Sure, and each person has to decide for themselves which is better. Good chance of a partial (but still potentially dangerous) failure, or slim chance of a total failure. Both options are sort of in the same price range, i.e. if anyone produced a pressurized twin piston these days it would be in the price range of a pressurized turbine single.

The fact that no one makes a pressurized twin piston any more, and there are several pressurized turbine singles, tells you what most buyers have decided is the lower risk.


Mase Taylor
(Top Gun)
10/30/10 12:32 PM
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented...

Quote:

For some reason, I'm just having a bit of trouble with the single engine jet <g>.

If one is to go high, far and fast, they'd traverse a lot of adverse terrain, take off and land in more congested areas and deal with more weather. I would think redundancy would be more important. The commercial folks sure seem to lean toward it.

Another reason the $1MM VLJ will be difficult to deliver (in case that issue isn't settled in everyone's mind.) Even $2MM seems open to question.

Best,

Dave





THIS MACHINE seems to accomplish it's mission with only one engine.

Of course, it has certain safety systems you don't usually see - parachute, ejection seat...


Dave Siciliano (ADS)
(Top Gun)
10/30/10 05:14 PM
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented...

Sean: Great comments; I'm still thinking through all of this. If Eclipse had delivered what was promised, I'd have been on board. Obviously, that didn't work. Even if the plane had been delivered, the only baggage room was in the cabin and the build quality didn't seem to match Beech standards.

Looking through a lot of operating cost data. One can just throw out a lot of options if cost isn't considered. TBM certainly has lower operating cost but last I looked (and according to Aviation Week August edition) was $1,500,000 for a 2002 model. Mission cost for a 1,000 mile trip was $1.75. Eclipse was $1.79. So pretty reasonable in that regard. A King Air C90A was $3.08 and cost $1,000,000 for a 92. The TBM and Eclipse were about 45 minutes faster on a trip than the King Air.

Folks throw around the PC-12 all the time when discussing these other birds. Same article has one for $3,000,000 for an '08. 1,000 mile trip cost was $2.20; so, that is reasonable but entry cost is much higher as is insurance for the higher hull value.

I keep looking at these and going back and forth. TBM sounds interesting for me, but I still wonder about the foreign manufacturer; currency translation affect and support. King Air certainly stands out there.

Sounds like Cessna sees the light for a six seat pressurized turbine and Beech is rumored to be on that track.

Best,

Dave


Dave Siciliano (ADS)
(Top Gun)
10/30/10 05:19 PM
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented...

Mase: I hate to repeat myself, but here at my FBO last year, several turbines came in with one shut down. Non event because they had two.

I live in a very congested area; no good and not many other options if one lost one in a single on approach or departure: parking lots; highways and RR tracks.

Departing to the south, engine loss at 400 feet in a single poses a dilemma: sanitary treatment facility or ten degrees left to the Comedy Club <g>

Best,

Dave


treploW nellA
(AVSIG Member)
10/31/10 08:00 PM
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented...

Quote:

TBM sounds interesting for me, but I still wonder about the foreign manufacturer; currency translation affect and support.




The TBM Owners and Pilots Association can tell you all you need to know about those issues.


treploW nellA
(AVSIG Member)
10/31/10 08:08 PM
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented...

Quote:

There is a lot to like about a single-engine turbine (jet or prop). Greatly improved reliability over piston twins, good power and speed, but reasonable (almost piston-like) fuel burns. A twin jet is going to be expensive to run, even a Mustang.





Turbine engine fuel flows are proportional to speed and weight. The fuel flow doesn't care if you get the speed out of one or two engines.

A twin engine C425 and a TBM700 both go about the same speed at FL250 with about the same FF. In the equivalent $/nm of DOC one or two engines do not make a lot of difference.

The savings of a single engine are in less weight, less systems, and less OH expense, all at the cost of less redundancy.


Mac Tichenor (DAL)
(Top Gun)
11/03/10 12:29 AM
Re: PiperJet Becomes More Biz Jet Oriented...

Dave -

I've been very pleased with Socata's service and general responsiveness, as well as with my local service center (Cutter @ TKI). In the most recent Pro Pilot magazine survey, Socata's service/support ranked a close second to Pilatus and ahead of both Cessna and Hawker/Beech among turboprops.

About 70% of the 530+/- TBM 700/850s are US based. Perhaps as a result of this US predominance, I have seen no effects of currency fluctuations. All pricing is in dollars and does not vary any more than I've seen with other makes. My sense is that competitive factors control pricing.

As Allen mentioned, there's a lot of good information and advice available at the the tbmowners.org site. And feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss it in more detail.

Best,
Mac



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