| Bob Miller |
| (Public Guest) |
| 06/22/11 03:58 PM |
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Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Help!!
Other than language included in FAR 91.9 and 91.13, is there any rule specifically requiring checklist usage in Part 91 flight operations?
Bob
| Scott Dyer [HPN/NY] |
| (Top Gun) |
| 06/22/11 09:42 PM |
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Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Bob -- There is no rule that says that, at least for light GA (I haven't
checked the corners of 91.500 et seq. for large/turbine powered rules).
But, please, no one should write to the Chief Counsel and ask that
question....or we'll run the risk of getting an interpretation we don't
want, like or need. I know you meant well, but I'm still smarting over the
opinion issued on what is known icing, before slightly more practical heads
prevailed.
| James Peters (BAK) |
| (AVSIG Member) |
| 06/23/11 12:15 AM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Scott...I have a Private License,and in my opinion, while there may not be a requirement for a checklist...common sense should dictate the use of one, if there is a published checklist.... Again my opinion.
Jim
| Russell Holton |
| (AVSIG Member) |
| 06/23/11 12:28 AM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Sometimes in situations, I ask myself, if this goes badly - for an unrelated reason, and I find myself in court going though cross-examination by an opposing lawyer - how will it go?
| Scott Dyer [HPN/NY] |
| (Top Gun) |
| 06/23/11 07:16 AM |
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Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Jim - In that case, by all means, use one. Every time.
My point is that we do not need a regulation, or interpretation of any
existing regulation, to require checklist use in small aircraft part 91 ops.
At least that's been my experience and judgment in single pilot ops, that
written checklist use at times can be contrary to safety. Flows, and mental
checklists, are a different story. But pulling out the card and muddling
through the list as a "do list", for taking the runway, climb, cruise, top of
descent, approach and on final, may not advance the safety ball the way we'd
like it to.
Some of this is semantic, from a practical standpoint. Take a look, if you
will, at the following articles (and don't let the provocative title of the
first article cause a visceral, negative reaction, as the editor's choice of
title was unfortunate):
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182037-1.html
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182038-1.html
| Anne Umphrey (KBED) |
| (Top Gun) |
| 06/23/11 09:35 AM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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How is Deakin these days? I miss reading him on Avsig.
Anne
| Scott Dyer [HPN/NY] |
| (Top Gun) |
| 06/23/11 10:17 AM |
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Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Anne -- I miss him here deeply, too.
Last I chatted with John, over on the Beechtalk forum a few months ago, he
sounded great (via typing) and it was wonderful to make contact again.
| Mark Kolber (APA/Denver) |
| (AVSIG Member) |
| 06/23/11 02:22 PM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Quote:I understand your point and those of those who talk of the advantages of flows and SOPs over written checklists. I am also a proponent of flows and SOPs but regularly back those up with the written checklist.
At least that's been my experience and judgment in single pilot ops, that
written checklist use at times can be contrary to safety. Flows, and mental
checklists, are a different story. But pulling out the card and muddling
through the list as a "do list", for taking the runway, climb, cruise, top of
descent, approach and on final, may not advance the safety ball the way we'd
like it to.
But why are you assuming that a checklist needs to be treated as a "do list"? I doubt you'll find anyone, even a beginning student pilot, who starts the takeoff roll and then looks at the checklist to determine what speed to rotate at and then after rotation looks down again to figure out what speed to continue the climb.
Yes, that's an extreme example, but just about all of the "anti-checklist" stuff I've read, at bottom line, are based on that assumption - that the only way people use checklists is one that interferes with flight duties and safety. They most assuredly don't for example, talk in terms of looking at the before-landing checklist when still well clear of the traffic pattern as a way of briefing the approach to landing.
| Scott Dyer [HPN/NY] |
| (Top Gun) |
| 06/23/11 02:39 PM |
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Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Mark -- I'm not assuming that a checklist has to be used as a do list, just
that most pilots who use written checklists in light GA aircraft use them in
that fashion.
Sure, not in absolutely every circumstance, but more than they should, in my
view.
| sreyoB yrraL |
| (AVSIG Member) |
| 06/23/11 03:25 PM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Quote:
How is Deakin these days? I miss reading him on Avsig.
Yeah, why he's leave, anyway? Was someone not using their under-arm spray?
| Steve Leonard [PDK-ATL] |
| (Top Gun) |
| 06/24/11 02:43 PM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Quote:Quote:
How is Deakin these days? I miss reading him on Avsig.
Yeah, why he's leave, anyway? Was someone not using their under-arm spray?
He had a medical issue about three years ago, and while he was waiting to see if he could get his ticket back, he decided that the non-aviation side of life was pretty interesting, too, and that he had neglected it all the years he had been aviating. He says he's really enjoying being a ground-based human.
| sreyoB yrraL |
| (AVSIG Member) |
| 06/24/11 05:27 PM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Quote:
He says he's really enjoying being a ground-based human.
Internet-connected computers are on the ground...
| Richard Palm (PAO) |
| (Top Gun) |
| 07/05/11 04:24 PM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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In single-pilot ops, I believe in the use of memorized checklists under most circumstances when the aircraft is in motion. We have enough temptations to go head-down with all the advanced avionics in today's cockpits.
| Kcid LlirreM |
| (AVSIG Member) |
| 07/06/11 09:54 AM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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I was just about to post a call for Deakin!
| John Gaitskill, 0A7 |
| (Top Gun) |
| 07/06/11 05:47 PM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Quote:
if there is a published checklist....
Jim
I wrote my own specific to the individual plane. It's bothered me when people use the generic cards. The flow of things is interrupted by having to skip items on the checklist that aren't on the plane being used. I encourage people to "publish" or write their own for each plane. The generics may not have some things that should be on the checklist for a specific plane. Even the manufacturer's checklist is too general for me.
| Joe Budge (W29) |
| (Top Gun) |
| 07/06/11 09:27 PM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Quote:
The generics may not have some things that should be on the checklist for a specific plane. Even the manufacturer's checklist is too general for me.
No kidding. There are some autopilot-specific checklist items which appear in Section 9, Supplement 13 of my POH but do not appear on the manufacturer's checklist. And then there are the checklist items which my various avionics and airframe upgrades have introduced. IMO a customized checklist is vital for anything other than the "generic" factory plane.
Regards,
Joe
| Anne Umphrey (KBED) |
| (Top Gun) |
| 07/07/11 08:38 AM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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I too have made up my own checklist. It is based on the official Robinson checklist, but I've added a few things including some numbers that aren't in the original. I have altered the flow only slightly.
Mine is clearer and much more complete IMHO.
Anne
| Mark Kolber (APA/Denver) |
| (AVSIG Member) |
| 07/12/11 10:24 AM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Quote:I've always been a personal checklist user/proponent. Four reasons:Quote:
if there is a published checklist....
Jim
I wrote my own specific to the individual plane. It's bothered me when people use the generic cards. The flow of things is interrupted by having to skip items on the checklist that aren't on the plane being used. I encourage people to "publish" or write their own for each plane. The generics may not have some things that should be on the checklist for a specific plane. Even the manufacturer's checklist is too general for me.
1. You can eliminate the "too much stuff on it" which IMO is the #1 reason pilots don't use them. In my personal checklists, multiple entries about what switches to turn on or off is replaced by "Switches on," "Excess switches off" and "Switches off" and leaving it to my flow to take care of the individual items. But...
2. You can add stuff that is either airplane or operation-specific. Although, I have the generic "switches on" and "switches off" entries, I also have a specific "AC off" for the one airplane I fly with air conditioning since that's the one item I'm most likely to forget. Same for setting fuel in a plane with a totalizer. Other examples I've seen is the student of mine who added "Touchdown - full crosswind deflection" to his landing checklist as a reminder of that important part of a crosswind landing.
3. You can move things around to conform to a flow pattern or reason. I figured out long ago that I really don't want to wait until I taxi 3-4 miles to the run-up area before checking to see that the controls are free and correct in my seated position. It's now before engine start.
4. You can make the whole thing more personally ergonomic and usable for quick reference using columns, fonts, type size, font color, tabs....
| Mase Taylor |
| (Top Gun) |
| 07/12/11 01:03 PM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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I always used a pre-start and pre-taxi checklist for everything from a C-150 to a C-210, starting with the walk-around up to and including the runup. I did a final pre-takeoff checklist from memory that included the killer items: fuel, oil pressure and temp, RPM, DG set, cowl flaps, flaps, trim, etc.
Everything else was from memory - climb, cruise, descent, approach, and landing. Always had the emergency checklist open and available in the door pocket just in case.
The one emergency I had, an engine failure at 500 AGL after takeoff, I did everything from memory and put it down on a runway.
| Randy Sohn |
| (Gradn Exlated Ordre of teh Fyling Fingres) |
| 07/14/11 11:40 AM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Quote:
I always used a pre-start and pre-taxi checklist for everything from a C-150 to a C-210, starting with the walk-around up to and including the runup. I did a final pre-takeoff checklist from memory that included the killer items: fuel, oil pressure and temp, RPM, DG set, cowl flaps, flaps, trim, etc.
Everything else was from memory - climb, cruise, descent, approach, and landing. Always had the emergency checklist open and available in the door pocket just in case.
The one emergency I had, an engine failure at 500 AGL after takeoff, I did everything from memory and put it down on a runway.
Mase, one thing I learned and really believe after watching the results for many, many years, "short checklists get used - long checklists get $--t canned/tossed out the window".
JD is doing fine, described himself to me as "about 85%". I was gaonna send him an old copy of a mag dealing with the Lockheed Connies, he sez he jsut looks over at Camirillo thru his binoculars and says "life's OK this way".
best, randy
| Joe Budge (W29) |
| (Top Gun) |
| 07/18/11 11:34 PM |
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Re: Rule Requiring Checklist Usage in Part 91 Ops????
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Quote:
Quote:
I always used a pre-start and pre-taxi checklist for everything from a C-150 to a C-210, starting with the walk-around up to and including the runup. I did a final pre-takeoff checklist from memory that included the killer items: fuel, oil pressure and temp, RPM, DG set, cowl flaps, flaps, trim, etc.
Everything else was from memory - climb, cruise, descent, approach, and landing. Always had the emergency checklist open and available in the door pocket just in case.
The one emergency I had, an engine failure at 500 AGL after takeoff, I did everything from memory and put it down on a runway.
Mase, one thing I learned and really believe after watching the results for many, many years, "short checklists get used - long checklists get $--t canned/tossed out the window".
best, randy
Our area had a fatal glider crash two days ago that's on topic. Here's the note from the DC Pilots' mail list:
Quote:
Many are probably wondering what this is all about. I owe it to Jim to
clear up the below misconception. He wasn't the pilot. Which is odd
since it seems like anytime I'm there and he's flying, he's going up in
a glider. Here's the article -
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-p...q3JI_story.html
My understanding is the flaps were set upon takeoff. The pilot tried to
correct this situation and grabbed the tow release lever instead of the
flap lever.
Good time to mention - Be sure to do your checklist. Every time.
Rob
The unbroken link to the story is:
http://tinyurl.com/3vpdn7j
Regards,
Joe