nehoC hctiM
(Top Gun)
11/03/06 08:37 AM
Current thinking on deadheading in the cockpit

Wondering what the FAA's take is on Deadheading in the actual jumpseat?
Does it count towards duty time?
Count towards the 8 hr max per day?
Count towards 30 in 7 limits?

Thanks for any and all answers.
Mitch


sreyoB yrraL
(AVSIG Member)
11/03/06 09:48 AM
Re: Current thinking on deadheading in the cockpit

If the deadhead is required by the company then it is not rest. It does not count as flight time.

nehoC hctiM
(Top Gun)
11/03/06 05:37 PM
Re: Current thinking on deadheading in the cockpit

Quote:

If the deadhead is required by the company then it is not rest. It does not count as flight time.




Thanks Larry,

That is how I figured it worked.
Some overbearing crusty capt that was jumseating on us yesterday..was warning us it had changed... :)

Counts towards duty time, just not flight time!

Mitch


sreyoB yrraL
(AVSIG Member)
11/03/06 07:01 PM
Re: Current thinking on deadheading in the cockpit

Changed to what?

Mat Waugh
(AVSIG Member)
11/04/06 05:09 AM
Re: Current thinking on deadheading in the cockpit

Quote:

If the deadhead is required by the company then it is not rest. It does not count as flight time.




Which is true regardless of whether the deadhead is in the actual jumpseat, in the back, or riding in a van (as long as that transportation is not "local in nature").

I too am curious as to what crusty the captain thinks has changed. It's possible that in the brave new world of maximizing efficiency that the captain is starting to run into FARs they've never had to deal with in the past since they were protected by union or company rules.


J. Wiley
(Aviation Researcher)
11/04/06 08:54 AM
Re: Current thinking on deadheading in the cockpit

A number of companies have now cut the pay for DH to half pay. It used to be DH was paid at the same rate as flight pay.

nehoC hctiM
(Top Gun)
11/04/06 11:16 AM
Re: Current thinking on deadheading in the cockpit

Ours is historical pay for that leg.
For example, SFO to ORD is about 4 hrs.
If the flight is delayed, and takes 5 hrs 30 min due to holding, flow, delays, we get paid 4 hrs.
If early, we get paid 4 hrs.
The crusty old capt was telling us, that his union and airline both, count omc or jumpseat as duty time and the FAA considered it on duty hence towards total time flying for the day since you were considered a CrewMember.
The required, on non required aspect wasnt even a factor, according to Capt Crusty.


J. Wiley
(Aviation Researcher)
11/05/06 08:38 PM
Re: Current thinking on deadheading in the cockpit

Quote:

Ours is historical pay for that leg.
For example, SFO to ORD is about 4 hrs.
If the flight is delayed, and takes 5 hrs 30 min due to holding, flow, delays, we get paid 4 hrs.
If early, we get paid 4 hrs.
The crusty old capt was telling us, that his union and airline both, count omc or jumpseat as duty time and the FAA considered it on duty hence towards total time flying for the day since you were considered a CrewMember.
The required, on non required aspect wasnt even a factor, according to Capt Crusty.




Yep, things keep changing. We had a weasel who changed the software in the ACARs unit so you had to reach Xmph and move x distance before it would log you off the gate FOR PAY. Inbound, it would often lop off a few minutes if you were parked waiting for a gate.

As for leg pay, however, it was scheduled or what you flew if longer. The idea was that if you were ahead of schedule, you would reduce your enroute speed and save fuel but in very few cases were you to punch it up and try to recover lost time with increased Mach.

And too, at times even the FAA didn't know what was and was not duty time. The company for a while said that if you got 24hrs on a layover, it met the requirement for 24 in 7. The FAA hemmed and hawed for a while looking the other way until the issue was pressed and then the FAA said, "Nope.. it is not time OFF...it counts." Still some schedulers would try to talk guys into buying that stale piece of meat.


sreyoB yrraL
(AVSIG Member)
11/05/06 11:11 PM
Re: Current thinking on deadheading in the cockpit

Quote:

And too, at times even the FAA didn't know what was and was not duty time. The company for a while said that if you got 24hrs on a layover, it met the requirement for 24 in 7. The FAA hemmed and hawed for a while looking the other way until the issue was pressed and then the FAA said, "Nope.. it is not time OFF...it counts."




Us, FedEx, UPS and Astar use that all the time. We and Astar have trips that are up to 8 days in length. FedEx and UPS have trips that are two-weeks long. All have layovers of more than 24 hours to provide the required 24 in 7. Between the four airlines we cover Supplemental, Domestic and Flag ops.


J. Wiley
(Aviation Researcher)
11/06/06 09:22 AM
Re: Current thinking on deadheading in the cockpit

Quote:

Us, FedEx, UPS and Astar use that all the time. We and Astar have trips that are up to 8 days in length. FedEx and UPS have trips that are two-weeks long. All have layovers of more than 24 hours to provide the required 24 in 7. Between the four airlines we cover Supplemental, Domestic and Flag ops.




but you are talking about international trips, not domestic, right?


sreyoB yrraL
(AVSIG Member)
11/06/06 12:21 PM
Re: Current thinking on deadheading in the cockpit

Quote:

but you are talking about international trips, not domestic, right?




Both. We have very few international trips.


Mat Waugh
(AVSIG Member)
11/13/06 08:52 AM
Re: Current thinking on deadheading in the cockpit

Quote:

And too, at times even the FAA didn't know what was and was not duty time. The company for a while said that if you got 24hrs on a layover, it met the requirement for 24 in 7. The FAA hemmed and hawed for a while looking the other way until the issue was pressed and then the FAA said, "Nope.. it is not time OFF...it counts." Still some schedulers would try to talk guys into buying that stale piece of meat.




That's a POI interpretation you've got there. Push comes to shove the FAA's counsel won't support it. Relieved from duty is relieved from duty, no matter what the location. The regulations have no concept of base or domicile, they have no concept of time off. The reg. says "relieved from duty" and since that's pretty much the definition of rest you can't have it both ways. If you're complying with the rest regulations then if you get 24 hours of rest the clock resets on the 7 day restriction.

Which is where the contract comes in :-)


Andy Dulay [PGD]
(Hangar Rat)
11/23/06 07:39 PM
Re: Current thinking on deadheading in the cockpit

John,

At UPS it counts as the 24/7 break anywhere in the system. International or Domestic.

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